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Champion suggestion

EllenEllen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
The Champion status is a neat idea that has potential as an avenue to generate solo combat in an environment currently dominated by team-oriented conflict. The current incarnation of the Champion system fails to live up to this goal; it simply paints a large blue (or purple) target on the backs of those who choose to participate, leaving them as likely to be beset upon by teams of foes as they are by a lone challenger. With this in mind, I have tried to come up with a simple idea to remedy this problem and make Champion a fun system to both encourage and enforce duel-like encounters without needlessly subjecting the participants to being knocked over by gangs of opponents.

Basic idea:

The pros and cons of Champion status would remain intact, with the following exceptions:
  1. Dying will cost half the normal experience instead of none.
  2. Dying to another Champion will not remove Champion status.
  3. Champion status no longer conveys the right for anyone to attack you
Those changes make way for another change, which would become the backbone of the Champion system. Any full Champion may target any other full Champion with command CHAMPION CHALLENGE <target>. This challenge cannot be forced and does not require consent; it is automatically accepted. Once the challenge is initiated, the following list of effects take place:
  1. Both participants are immediately healed to full health and mana. All harmful afflictions are cleared.
  2. All third-party beneficial abilities targeting either participant immediately cease. This includes things like Defend and Bloodsworn. Persistent defences that do not require the active participation of another such as runes, blessings or bandages remain.
  3. Both participants become immune to any harmful or beneficial abilities that originate from anyone other than the opposing Champion or mobiles loyal to that champion. They become immune to the attacks of non-loyal mobiles as well.
  4. The participants become area-locked. They cannot leave the area for the duration of the duel by and means and all forms of long-range teleportation are forbidden to them.
This duel continues until one or the other is slain, the death automatically bypassing all forms of instant resurrection, or until 10 minutes have passed with no victor. At the end of the duel, the surviving Champion is granted 15 seconds of grace with which to escape. In the case of a draw, both Champions are granted 15 seconds of grace, though they may simply choose to forsake it and fight again. Winning such a duel is the only way to earn points for the Champion Kill Streak and losing such a duel is the only way to have your Champion Kill Streak reset. The Hunting Kill Streak will remain unchanged.

All Champions would have access to a few unforceable commands:
  • FORSAKE CHAMPION - Removes Champion status with no penalties. Not useable during a Champion duel.
  • FORSAKE HONOUR - Ends current duel and strips the user of Champion status. Reinstatement must wait at least one in-game year.
  • FORFEIT DUEL - Ends duel by suicide, leaving honour intact. Enemy Champion is attributed the kill and all benefits of victory.
Safeguards:

The basic idea as outlined above is not without flaws. The following list contains important safeguards to limit potential abuse of this system:
  • A Champion may not issue a challenge if they are below 2/3rds health or mana, paralysed, bound in any way, or if the target has grace. This is intended to stop anyone from issuing a challenge as a way to avoid death in teams.
  • A Champion may not issue a challenge if they or their target currently stands in unwelcoming or enemied territory.
  • A Champion may challenge another in their circle, but such a duel may never time out; as a gesture of trust that the privileges granted to dueling Champions will not be misused, any such duel involving those who are allies must end with nothing less than blood.

Implications on team combat:

It would be entirely possible during large-scale conflict for a Champion on one team to engage a Champion on the other in a solo duel, as long as that challenge was issued before they became damaged or afflicted enough to do so. This is intentional. Since the Champion system is entirely opt-in it is simple enough to make yourself immune to by using FORSAKE CHAMPION before important group fights, but the option to have one of your teammates tie up a valuable member of their team in solo combat while the rest of the two groups battle around them is a powerful tool that can add much depth of strategy to large battles.

Team combat is very chaotic, and it would be easy to miss a challenge issued to you in the midst of it. For this reason, those who know the Survival ability CombatFocus would automatically use it on their foe whenever a duel was initiated. If desired, COMBAT FOCUS OFF would work to end this.

Sample messages:

Declaring a challenge: "You cast your gaze towards Bob, who turns his head to meet your stare. A rush of excitement fills your limbs as you see your look of challenge mirrored in his eyes."

Receiving a challenge: "You feel an intense gaze fall upon you and feel a rush of excitement as you lock eyes with Bob."

Attempting to leave a duel in progress: "You turn to leave, but stop cold in your tracks; such cowardice is beneath you."

Attempting to attack a duelist: "You raise your hand to intervene, but a sudden sense of wrongness overwhelms you; you find your will to act has vanished."

Closing words:

Roleplay-wise, this system is based around a very simple definition of honour, but that isn't in an effort to restrict those who can participate. In order to reap the benefits of Champion status one must follow the rules while engaged in a duel, but no restrictions are placed upon them at any other time. In the eyes of this system, an assassin who uses Champion status as a weapon, obeying the rules merely because he wants the power that comes with it is no less worthy to be a Champion than the most honourable and noble of knights.

I left this idea as simple as possible while still being robust enough to work. There is plenty of room to build rewards or features on top of it, perhaps tied in with Sects system for those Champions who belong to one, or monthly rewards for those who earn the highest kill streaks.

Any and all feedback is welcomed, especially if it is constructive.

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Comments

  • AzefelAzefel Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭
    This sort of concept has been thrown around over the years (re: aspects). I would like something along these lines ( I mean, at this point anything would be better than what we currently have ), but we'll see.

    They can't even do the monthly qhonours for Champions (been 4 months so far as far as I'm concerned), so I don't expect them to do something like this any time soon :P
  • MkvennerMkvenner Member Posts: 38 ✭✭
    I have certain issues with the general philosophy behind these ideas, but as I'm not playing at the moment I won't make comments the relate to the state of the game however, I do see a potential technical problem.

    You have a team fight situation. You're opponents are a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing and an Eldreth (for example). Your team could easily roflstomp them if it weren't for the mighty, blouse-clad elf in the opposing line up. What stops people walking in and instachallenging Eldreth, removing him from the team-fight for long enough to kill the enemy. Assuming Eldreth wins the fight, you still end up losing one guy to take out the rest of their team. You then proceed to mop-up shards or whatever you crazy kids are fighting over these days.
    image
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2013
    I see the potential of people still spamming shield to get back into the challenge threshold but I'm not entirely sure that's even a bad thing either. I definitely like the concept and see the ability to make this the next fighting fad.
    image
  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, for double exp and not being open pk outside  of this  all I have to do is stand there and let them kill me while I keep the benefits of double xp and only have to worry about other champions? A good portion of whom won't bother attacking me anyway.  Then I go back to bashing and don't care?

    I'm down.
  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Having a veil helps too.
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    And a twist ring ::waggle::
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Veils make the 'Champion minigame' unfun and futile.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Selthis gonna ruin things.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”

  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2013
    Lionas doesn't actually exist. Any evidence supporting his existence is just a conspiracy by the administration to convince you that he exists.
  • EllenEllen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Mkvenner said:
    You have a team fight situation. You're opponents are a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing and an Eldreth (for example). Your team could easily roflstomp them if it weren't for the mighty, blouse-clad elf in the opposing line up. What stops people walking in and instachallenging Eldreth, removing him from the team-fight for long enough to kill the enemy. Assuming Eldreth wins the fight, you still end up losing one guy to take out the rest of their team. You then proceed to mop-up shards or whatever you crazy kids are fighting over these days.
    Nothing would, if Eldreth was a Champion and one of the enemies was too. That's why I included a way to remove Champion status with no penalties at any time. I honestly think the ability to tie up a key member of the opposing group is pretty neat, especially since it could work both ways.
  • AzefelAzefel Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭
    Mkvenner said:
    What stops people walking in and instachallenging Eldreth, removing him from the team-fight for long enough to kill the enemy
    Pretty sure that is the entire point, that you get individual champ vs champ fights within a group fight. If it was going to be Eldreth vs Ziat for example it'd be something like this.

  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2013
    While it's a really cool idea on paper, I can't help but imagine it will be abused to hell.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2013
    Azefel said:
    Mkvenner said:
    What stops people walking in and instachallenging Eldreth, removing him from the team-fight for long enough to kill the enemy
    Pretty sure that is the entire point, that you get individual champ vs champ fights within a group fight. If it was going to be Eldreth vs Ziat for example it'd be something like this.

    Selthis is the old man convincing Eldreth to fight, right? And Menoch is Agememnon?
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The problem with this is the problem with any system with forced 1v1s.

    Somebody like Justus or Juran is going to walk up, area lock you with challenge, and then run you over with their artifact truck. Or somebody with a potent 1v1 timebomb duelist class is going to walk up and force you to strong-knight fight them.

    They had an Aetherstorm event a long, long while back, that consisted of forced 1v1 duels in a 3x3 area, and this was the exact same problem with that, too. People generally don't want to participate in systems that include a requirement like "Oh, hey, any other participant can walk up and drag you into a unfleeable 1v1 regardless of the power/capability differential and regardless of what you happen to be doing at the time. I hope you didn't actually want to get hunting done, because you're just free points everytime you're outside your city and somebody who can kill you is bored."


    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AzefelAzefel Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭
    I can empathize with that but I just see it as one of the consequences of getting Champion. No one is forcing anyone to be a Champion, though.
  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interrupting team combat to have a power duel with your chosen champion is dumb.
  • EllenEllen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2013

    Khizan said:

    Somebody like Justus or Juran is going to walk up, area lock you with challenge, and then run you over with their artifact truck. Or somebody with a potent 1v1 timebomb duelist class is going to walk up and force you to strong-knight fight them.

    I think the opt-in nature of Champion makes this a moot point, since being locked into a fight with someone who can kill you instead of just being able to flee to your city is the point. It's also a vast improvement over the current system, where you can go out hunting and get jumped by 3 people at once with no recourse.
    Juran said:
    Interrupting team combat to have a power duel with your chosen champion is dumb.
    Why is this dumb? I agree it could be an issue with how Champion currently is, but that is why I included a way to leave Champion instantly from anywhere. If you don't want to risk being forced into a duel at an inconvenient time then the solution is simple... don't opt in. Or do opt in, and quit when an important battle arises.
  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So I can challenge someone defensively and then pop back out when we're both healed? We have a dueling system for people that want to white knight duels, Champion is more survivalistic.
  • EllenEllen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭

    Juran said:
    So I can challenge someone defensively and then pop back out when we're both healed? We have a dueling system for people that want to white knight duels, Champion is more survivalistic.
    I suppose you could do exactly that (if you were above 2/3rds health and mana and unhindered), but I don't see that really being an issue. According to what I wrote if you drop Champion status mid-duel you can't get it again for a significant amount of time. If you look at the 'Safeguards' section, I listed a few restrictions to make this system way harder to abuse in teams, but if you think I missed something, please point it out.

    We do have an arena dueling system, but that's a false argument. It's like saying that Shardfalls are an unnecessary mechanic to generate team conflict because there are team arena events. Currently, there are pretty much zero ways to spontaneously generate duel-like conflicts. While that might not be something you are personally interested in, there are others who are.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2013
    Ellen said:
    I think the opt-in nature of Champion makes this a moot point, since being locked into a fight with someone who can kill you instead of just being able to flee to your city is the point. It's also a vast improvement over the current system, where you can go out hunting and get jumped by 3 people at once with no recourse.

    There's a significant difference between "Locking yourself into a fight with somebody who might kill you" and "Locking yourself into a 1v1 fight that you have absolutely not a single chance in hell of winning." The latter is an unavoidable consequence of any system like the one you describe, and it drops participation into the gutter.

    Combine this with the fact that 1v1 balance often feels like a game of rock/scissors/paper even without artifacts being taken into consideration AND the fact that your Champion system is a liability in team combat, and you get a badly designed system. 

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2013
    @Ellen I like where your head is at, but the implementation in this sense just doesn't work for me. Like @Khizan said, no one wants to be locked down by a train of artifacts, and quite frankly there is simply no way to avoid that without some sort of choice like the arena has. I frequently got 1v1 champion fights when I was bothered with keeping it up. It's really all just luck of the draw.
  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2013
    Actually, I think people aren't thinking of the long term. Sure, forced 1v1 in team fights will devolve to 'artifacted badass vs people who suck at 1v1' but once the latter end up not going champion, only the actual badassess will remain as champions.

    So, this system, given time, would fix its own problems, I'm pretty sure.
  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I get 1v1 fights pretty regularly, and I don't even try. Gurn has jumped me 1v1 which has proven to be a good opportunity to test trigger tracking, and Ziat tried to trap me in Caanae the other day and we had a good monk vs. mage duel that neither side won.

    The game just doesn't have many true 'fighters' anymore, it has participants that get involved in things that benefit their city. Not many people care if they're seen as dueling gods, or master champions, or the best fighters in the game - they want to help their city and friends add notches to their belt in whatever competition is going on at the moment.

  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Juran said:


    The game just doesn't have many true 'fighters' anymore, it has participants that get involved in things that benefit their city. Not many people care if they're seen as dueling gods, or master champions, or the best fighters in the game - they want to help their city and friends add notches to their belt in whatever competition is going on at the moment.
    It sucks to hear it that way, but this is basically the way it is right now.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • EllenEllen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Khizan said:

    There's a significant difference between "Locking yourself into a fight with somebody who might kill you" and "Locking yourself into a 1v1 fight that you have absolutely not a single chance in hell of winning." The latter is an unavoidable consequence of any system like the one you describe, and it drops participation into the gutter.

    I honestly don't understand this objection. This system is meant for people who are confident enough in their capabilities to open themselves up to attack by other people also confident.. that isn't a drawback, that's the main feature. Fighting people who I have no chance in winning? I might be an odd one, but that excites me far more than fighting people who die in two hits. There will always be people who don't enjoy getting instantly killed by a Justus-delivered earthquake, of course, but that's precisely why this is strictly an opt-in system that is easy to quit. Furthermore, I doubt it's possible to drop participation further than the current Champion system, and this at least would appeal to the players who enjoy fighting solo combat even if they lose.


    Khizan said:

    Combine this with the fact that 1v1 balance often feels like a game of rock/scissors/paper even without artifacts being taken into consideration AND the fact that your Champion system is a liability in team combat, and you get a badly designed system. 

    You might think 1v1 balance is a game of rock/scissors/paper and you might be right, but saying so makes it seem as if you are saying that it simply isn't something you enjoy doing. That's quite alright, this system isn't meant for you, if that is the case.

    As for it being a liability in teams? You might see it as that, but I would personally see it as an enhancement. Something to make team combat more fun, and less about what it often seems to me, a weight of numbers deal. It gives commanders an extra thing to plan for/around, it gives duelists who don't enjoy team combat at all (I can't be the only one) something to actually enjoy doing.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2013
    Ahahah.

    Not many people care if they're seen as dueling gods, or master champions, or the best fighters in the game - they want to help their city and friends add notches to their belt in whatever competition is going on at the moment.

    A lot of people care. There's a solid list of people who tried to become 'the next big thing.' Some of them bumped into me, others bumped into Khizan, others bumped into you and Justus. Let's be honest here, we're hard on people. Khizan and I are the more verbal of the bunch. You and Justus just rub your opulent e-peen over dudes. Selthis is even known to call someone out from time to time.  The environment here doesn't exactly cater to moving up the food chain very easily. And for a lot of reasons, it's not really a bad thing. Does anyone remember the days of Anarion and Arlith?  Bathan is legit now and people listen to Sarrius sometimes. A lot of people try, but they get eaten by a bigger fish or called out for their duelist class/arena glory.

    Arena combat is only interesting when we get paid to show up.  The arena is a terrible measure of combat prowess. We know who I'm addressing here.

    1v1 is not a measure of skill. dsl/flare, dsl/flare, get body. Not that big of a challenge. For me? I can count to 17. Go me.  For hunters? Keep hitting stupidity and brainmelt a few times. Pick your duelist (flavor of the month) class and start the lame. That's not skill. Hell, fighting off teams isn't really an issue of skill anymore since we hand out cc's like candy.

    All of those reasons mentioned above have really pushed the game to favor team combat. Team combat removes all the disadvantages most people have when they try to fight. We're all stronger together (unless you're on the Cleveland Browns). Shards have made this an amazing system because you avoid the aftershocks. You can enter combat and avoid getting trolled by Kabal, Juran, Justus, Ruga, Menoch who are just padding the stats. You show up. You get as many shards as you can. You get lamed or steam rolled by a visa card and you go back to bashing. It's a sweet deal.

    Tl;dr: There are still fighters. There are -more- real fighters. There are more technically competent fighters out there than ever, and they're all significantly more involved and active than either of us.


  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's the second knock against my Browns today.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Life is hard.
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