Agree with you fully about the TELLs, no reason for those to be there - other than it takes less programming effort to simply post the log "as is". Perhaps a player coder could volunteer a script about that? About the mentality, hmm...dunno. I can only give you the perspective of a bottom-tier who types in aliases, keymashes, and just does this for a laugh. Honestly, I'd do it without the credits.
There's nothing forcing you to use it. It is meant to help people get into combat by providing logs for them to view and a chance to get some credits while trying it out. People that are starting out, especially people who don't already know people have a hard time learning how to fight and seeing other people's logs is a big part of that. The credits are there as compensation for being a teaching example and to encourage people who otherwise would not want to get into it. People who want to fight without logging have lots of other options they can take advantage of.
Ok. Would you consider creating an alternative to the fight club? Perhaps something that is designed for people who want to engage in combat without having every move watched. Keep the fight club. Add an additional tournament club designed for people who want to fight naturally. It could use basically the same coding.
Ok. Would you consider creating an alternative to the fight club? Perhaps something that is designed for people who want to engage in combat without having every move watched. Keep the fight club. Add an additional tournament club designed for people who want to fight naturally. It could use basically the same coding.
It does, but most of the time it doesn't award credits.
Correct. If you'd like the credit reward, then you need to contribute to the learning of others by allowing logs to be posted. That's the tradeoff we're sticking with.
Such a venue is only any good to anyone if people are actually fighting in it. Usually people aren't. Moreover, most people I see talking about the fight club, 99 times out of 100, are complaining about how the lag that seems to accompany it is negatively-affecting the things they actually are trying to engage in. But that's just my 2c.
Agreed, and I think that logging encourages good behaviour. Suddenly, there are PK choices, even for folks (like me) that don't make it their main meal. And that's a good thing. I still regularly get flattened fair and square, but my losses in fight club make it silly for me to blame it on arties. My opponents are skilled. Hats off! No team, no lag, just a level playing ground, a mirror and the opportunity for my self-reflection. And the potential to have a laugh at myself and to improve. And that's a good thing, too. So, cheers!
I've been less active recently, but I'd rather compare apples to apples. The question is which player handful (e.g., bashers, crafters, RPers, profession-switchers, etc.) you want to switch from activity A to activity B. I'd have thought the PK community would welcome such initiatives to improve combat participation.
I don't understand the argument. When you do log in for fight club, how many matches do you see? Most of the time I see none or one. A few times I've seen more -- but not often.
The entire premise of this seems pretty counter-intuitive, honestly.
It has IC elements, by virtue of being able to bet ICly-earned currency on matches, as well as rewarding fighters ICly for participating. This is cool, albeit if you know who's entering you can pretty easily game and negate the gambling portion and win every time.
On the other hand, logs are very obviously an OOC tool. The fact it shows both sides of the fight makes studying the logs a) incredibly unwieldy to the people you're supposedly helping teach, and b) makes logs incredibly bloated because it shows practically everything. If I'm a new player wanting to learn, I don't wanna have to type 'readnews logs 1' and see 'type MORE to see more (1%)' ten times before it goes to (2%). With how much it shows, even with a 60 pagelength you pretty much only see 1 attack from each person every time you type 'more' sometimes it's not even that much.
Considering there's like nobody who's actually a manual fighter still playing, you're honestly doing it a disservice trying to argue that this is used to help new players learn, especially considering just how hard some people spam (see the latter part of the above paragraph). What ever happened to asking experienced combatants for tips? Why is this method of teaching not something that's being rewarded? This is how everyone else learned, a new player doesn't want to have to resort to trying to scour logs they likely don't even understand.
I would be interested to see if this has actually been attractive to any new player whatsoever. The ones who know how to read logs well, are generally the ones who don't actually need help learning combat.
I'm not against logging, explicitly, but the way you're trying to pass it off is rather disingenuous. The fact you constantly brush off players concerns as "deal with it or don't participate" is perhaps one of the worst possible stances you could take as an admin, in a game that's already well beyond life-support stages. Considering the first two parts of my post, it's also not helping in any way whatsoever to keep IC/OOC separate when the vast majority of your players left already have an incredible difficulty in doing that. Unless of course that's not something you care about anymore, in which case carry on I guess.
I confirm that participation in Fight Club is low when I log on. I also confirm that the population of Imperian players in my org and on QWHO is also small when I log on. Since I cannot discuss this with my org on CT without going OOC, I assumed that we could talk here about the larger issue of how to diagnose the lack of combat participation (e.g., Fight Club) from noncoms. I agree that there may be better mechanisms than Fight Club to achieve this, but would be opposed to killing Fight Club without an alternative one in place. Is the new idea here a suggestion introducing student voucher system as an alternative? Or introducing "likes-for-credits"? I have no opinion for or against increasing the credit earning potential of top-tier combatants.
Personally, I have had players (that were not of my affinity circle) answer my combat questions OOCly (using SAY) to give me combat pointers after they beat me in the Coliseum. I thanked them, and enjoyed the interaction, but I did not hand them credits. I also do not think they were punished ICly by their home orgs for associating with a dirty magicker or helping out the enemy, which IC circle dogma would prescribe. One player, a top-tier combatant, told me ICly after a spar "download Mudlet, read your logs", and that was the end of the story. After both types of interactions, after the spar I went back to my regularly-scheduled IC life and was not offended that someone dropped into OOC to explain game mechanics, aliases, triggers, or clients to me. It was not a big deal. That said, I usually leave RT off except during a raid because constant OOC communication breaks my immersion and my enjoyment of the game.
I kill the person quickly, or I die quickly - either way it's a good return on my time investment.
The fight goes for 30+ minutes - either because neither combatant is making much headway, or because one of them runs and shields constantly, and it's no longer worth it - because in that time I could have done a spawn wave or 2, likely for more credits than I'd get for a win.
Would like to see the command FALCON/KESTREL WARHAWK automatically add talons to your loyal as an RG or Templar... or just give us Talons from the start so we can do that if we decide that it is what we want to do.
Diabolist arena heroes (such as those used in Fight Club) will now start with wraith attunement, rather than having to attune in the arena Deathknight arena heroes (such as those used in Fight Club) will now start with one (1) heart. Use it well!
Would like to see the command FALCON/KESTREL WARHAWK automatically add talons to your loyal as an RG or Templar... or just give us Talons from the start so we can do that if we decide that it is what we want to do.
The fight club logs have been incredibly beneficial to me over the past few days as I've actively worked to debug some attack messages. I would not have been able to make nearly the progress over this weekend without actual combat logs to test with.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
Comments
Why would you create a system that puts off non-high-end combatants? it's supposed to be welcoming to all, isn't it?
Personally, I have had players (that were not of my affinity circle) answer my combat questions OOCly (using SAY) to give me combat pointers after they beat me in the Coliseum. I thanked them, and enjoyed the interaction, but I did not hand them credits. I also do not think they were punished ICly by their home orgs for associating with a dirty magicker or helping out the enemy, which IC circle dogma would prescribe. One player, a top-tier combatant, told me ICly after a spar "download Mudlet, read your logs", and that was the end of the story. After both types of interactions, after the spar I went back to my regularly-scheduled IC life and was not offended that someone dropped into OOC to explain game mechanics, aliases, triggers, or clients to me. It was not a big deal. That said, I usually leave RT off except during a raid because constant OOC communication breaks my immersion and my enjoyment of the game.
My experience with fight club:
Deathknight arena heroes (such as those used in Fight Club) will now start with one (1) heart. Use it well!
The fight club logs have been incredibly beneficial to me over the past few days as I've actively worked to debug some attack messages. I would not have been able to make nearly the progress over this weekend without actual combat logs to test with.
Like a daydream.. or a fever