Make it so the person has a cool down to give you exp after so many deaths within a reasonable amount of time, to prevent farming on a single individual.
"Unfortunately he said if he takes out XP loss on death, he will be removing any effect PvP XP has on your Overall level to prevent, 'Hey buddy, let me kill and then resurrect you 1000 times so I can get to Aspect, then you can do the same to me."
Oh I read that, I just don't think it's the correct decision. There's got to be several ways in which farming your friends could be quashed, diminishing returns being the first that springs to mind, either on killing the same person and reset on killing someone else, or just killing in general and reset over time.
I think we'd be missing a trick removing pvp xp instead of increasing it.
On a similar note, I think quest xp could stand a pretty drastic improvement as well, I don't really understand why mindless bashing is the only way to aspect. I personally would have no issue if we awarded xp for all manner of things, harvesting, smithing or 'says' for instance. Aspect is where the game starts, not ends after all.
It's just a matter of policing it. We have an active group of Divine. If you see someone going the Dias/Justus route of farming kills, come down from on high and put them in their place. The community generally despises it and will be more than willing to point it out. It is ultimately about making policy and having the stones to enforce it, rather than letting it go on. That's what happened before and a lot of people felt the achievement was drastically cheapened.
If someone is forced to roleplay to farm a couple of kills in order to beat the fuzz, I'm fine with that.
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
And here is what I have to say to that: "So what?"
So what if you've got people farming it? How much worse would that make the game? I think you are dramatically overestimating the effect this will have. A few basic limitations on it should make it more than fine. If somebody finds a creative way to abuse it, you shut down that creative way.
Hell, I think you'd be fine just making it so that only kills that would show up on your "Kills" list give you EXP.
What you are basically saying is this: "Dias(and the others I can't remember who farmed up the kills achievement with kill/res/renounce/repeat) exist, and because they exist the rest of you don't get to have cool things, because they can't be trusted not to abuse them and farm them."
And to that, I say: "Screw them. Don't punish the world because they can't stop themselves from acting like giant toolboxes."
The goal with this change should be to make things more inclusive, and to encourage more people to get out there and PvP and get hooked on PvP and buy credits to get better at PvP so that you can make things even more awesome(hopefully in ways that involve PvP).
And so, PvP should be rewarding for the player, and not just in the "It's fun and it's satisfying to beat the crap out of the enemy" way, but in a mechanical way that encourages new players to jump in. In a way that gives them an incentive to do something they might not otherwise be interested in, because PvP can hook you FAST. Just look at Aulani(<3).
And the best way to do that is with EXP, because, frankly, leveling in this game sucks. Questing is a possible thing, but it's very possible for one person to monopolize the quests, and it's slow, and you have to know everything to make it effective. Bashing is a tedious grinding thing that boils down to "get tanky enough to survive a thing and then push the kill button until that thing dies, then repeat it a few hundred thousand more times.
But PvP? PvP is awesome and engaging and fun. If you get people holding Caanae Fight Club so that they can level up through deathmatching and glorious battle, that's not a "creative way of farming it."
That's awesome.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
And so, PvP should be rewarding for the player, and not just in the "It's fun and it's satisfying to beat the crap out of the enemy" way, but in a mechanical way that encourages new players to jump in. In a way that gives them an incentive to do something they might not otherwise be interested in, because PvP can hook you FAST. Just look at Aulani(<3).
So true. After nine years of playing this game on and off. I never had much interest in PvP, I could only code well enough to run away and when I knew I deserved the death I usually stuck around. But a few shardfalls and a little help and I was absolutely hooked.
And I have to agree, the rest of us shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few.
PVP levels grow pretty slowly, so make the amount of overall XP gained based on the relationship the killer has to the victim. Level 2 pk level person kills a level 90 person? That's great, they get 40k pk levels and 40 real levels. No big deal. But as they get closer to parity, the leveling curve reaches parity with the standard. So a l level 90 pk person farming a level 20? Only gets .01% or something per kill.
pk level 2 killing pk level 90 = WOO LEVEL PARTY
pk level 70 killing pk level 90 = Well, I got part of an overall level, but man I need to get like 10 more kills like that
Pk level 90 killing pk level 90 = Well, I got 1%, only 100 more to go. Oh god this is gonna get slower.
And then go with some sort of agression timer. If someone not in the same circle hits the person in the prior 20-30 seconds to death then they get a cut of the xp, but its a faction of what the killing blow lands. So the killing blow might score a sweet 1m xp, but the 4 people with the assists earn the 200k each if there were 5 total people involved
I'm sure I'm explaining it badly, but I hope it makes enough sense to get the point across.
The farming situation is easy to avoid. You already have the mechanic in place, blood baths. Take out the point enhancement and just reduce the pk value for someone who dies all the time.
Breakdown of team demonic based on theoretical amount of dying: Ahkan: 80%
Lionas: 100%
Mena: 1% Menoch: 40%
Kanthari: 150%
The more they die in time period x, the less they're worth. Time period could be something like 20m.
The degree to which you'd have to farm this and make it profitable would be blatantly obvious. It'd be even easier to detect if you use the bloodbath-like mechanic. We'd be able to spot it and we could report it to you. After that, it's really on the admin how they want to play it. If you don't want it to be farmed, you need to Sparda someone early and without mercy. After that, no one wants to step out of line.
I've played/tried several of the IRE games, and the starting experience in all of them is virtually identical. Start your newbie and trudge through the starting area with your low/no skills. When you get out, find the next highest bashing area. Trudge through that. Repeat this until you've gained enough levels to get the health required to do anything else. You can quest or do other things, but this is the general pattern.
Imperian's always sort of pushed itself as the PvP game of IRE. Making it possible to gain decent levels primarily through PvP would be a huge step towards cementing this, as well as giving Imperian a definite leg up on the other games, because it would open up an entirely new way to level for new players.
Instead of the old "Start playing and grind till you get to the fun stuff", increasing PvP exp and introducing assist EXP could make PvP via shardfalls and Obelisks and such into a legitimate progression path. Hell, in Imperian right now, PvP is generally detrimental to your progression unless you're low leveled and pop an Aspect exp pinata. Making it so that participating in PvP is beneficial to new characters would change things around completely. Joining shardfalls and getting involved in PvP events would suddenly start being beneficial to your character, encouraging more people to get involved and interested.
Yeah, there's been some complaints in this thread about how this kind of change would lead to "a lot more stupid zergs and unhealthy gameplay", but what that complaint boils down to is this: "More people would get involved in PvP, and I don't want that". Dress it up as pretty as you want, that's what's at the core of it.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
In all seriousness just using the ICD timer that already sucks hardcore for those of us trying to grind out pk levels to negate any experience, pk or overall, gained from said person is going to be a huge deterrent to farming it. Bam, no more broad spectrum farming and as was already mentioned, anyone that does attempt to farm it is going to get noticed and reported in a heartbeat.
The idea of having a clan for ranked 2's or 3's or something in Caanae is absolutely awesome. Duels and team duels in world pvp, where real stuff happens like ohgod I hate restocking herbs and so i ran out of kelp and lost, that is just amazing. You could work ranked spars into that too somehow if you wanted. And RP opportunities for pk'ers who like to RP and for those who can't do so outside of their circle abound.
Just the amount of general fantastic that could come from this idea of pk leveling is astounding.
XP from PVP is reduced. No 40 levels for a level 1 killing a level 100. Max the xp gain to 1 level or less max.
XP gain from killing people much lower in level and might gives little to no xp.
XP gain from killing the same player multiple times is reduced.
Basically killing people the same level/might or higher will be the best source of XP.
Thoughts? What other caveats are there? Gaining levels via pk -can- be easier then bashing, but it should not be ridiculously easier either... I think.
What is wrong with 40 levels for a level 1 novice? I can take a novice through creepers or Gongen and they get a level every 3 mobs.
I don't see the XP gain from PVP as that high to start with, so not sure about both 1&2.
About number 3, what is multiples times? What about players being resurrected, startbusted, Aryana holders with anchor that get back to the fight in less than a minute?
It does no good for the novice. If that is a real novice, we want them to experience the game more. Not skip massive parts of the game
Not killing people who are lower skilled in PVP is to keep people from killing weak players just for xp and encourages killing people equal in skill level.
You currently get no XP on repeat kills in an hour. So that will not really be a change.
We are adding in shared PV XP in rings.
I am actually considering turning on XP for PVP in the arena with these changes. What do you think of that idea?
Assuming that might and PVP skill or even ability to PVP are in any way linked is pretty fallacious. Different classes require wildly different investments, and away from tri-trans things are pretty wide as well.
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
XP from PVP is reduced. No 40 levels for a level 1 killing a level 100. Max the xp gain to 1 level or less max.
XP gain from killing people much lower in level and might gives little to no xp.
XP gain from killing the same player multiple times is reduced.
Basically killing people the same level/might or higher will be the best source of XP.
Thoughts? What other caveats are there? Gaining levels via pk -can- be easier then bashing, but it should not be ridiculously easier either... I think.
It does no good for the novice. If that is a real novice, we want them to experience the game more. Not skip massive parts of the game
Not killing people who are lower skilled in PVP is to keep people from killing weak players just for xp and encourages killing people equal in skill level.
You currently get no XP on repeat kills in an hour. So that will not really be a change.
We are adding in shared PV XP in rings.
I am actually considering turning on XP for PVP in the arena with these changes. What do you think of that idea?
I am pretty good with all these things. This seems like a fair compromise to everything we want vs what you're looking for. I'm also fine with capping the xp gain at a level, as I understand the point in that as well.
I do wonder though, how will the contribution to overall xp be calculated. Will someone who is pvp level 90 be worth more overall xp than someone who is pvp level 70, assuming the kiiller is level pvp level 50 assuming they were both overall level 90? I guess what I'm asking is xp gain for overall going to be based on pvp level or overall level?
Also, an hour seems like a REALLY long timer.Hell, that means you only get EXP from the first kill in an Obelisk fight.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Regarding pk experience sharing. Is there any other way we can do it other than strictly ring-based? I've brought up on the forums before how I really don't want Magick to have to go the massive ring route for shardfalls and the like. We've got a Clan specifically for it and that has worked out great so far.
Best method I could think of would be similar to the mechanics of boss mobs. Give experience to everyone in the same circle(so you don't have anyone pre-kicking their allies to steal some of experience) as the killer that has performed an aggressive action against the victim within the past 60 seconds(to prevent people from following graced or other similar abuse).
Pretty please? I like keeping my OOC and pk as far apart as I can.
Edit: 25% chunks over a 1 hour cooldown sound about right to me. It's very rare when a shardfall runs on for more than 5 or so battles, so I don't think it'd have any real effect there.
Also, when splitting experience, I'd be sure to make sure people get smaller shares of the same base amount of experience gain, depending on the number of participants. Something like 60/40 for two combatants, 40/30/30 for three, 30/23/23/23, 25/18/18/18/18, and so on. Those numbers seem pretty fair to me.
I like that idea... the 25% chunk... it still gives you a fair amount of experience in a shardfall but at the same time keeps everyone from saying "Don't harvest shards and let's just kill one another for the hell of it and for the xp'z". Also, random thought, does Imperian's server keep track of PK levels on those who have previously killed you? Like say someone killed me a month ago, would it have their PK level from the time they did? If so, then something you could do is take a look at the KILLS list, check the PK level of each person on that list, then average that PK level, and use that as a percentage modifier to multiply by max possible XP from PK.
For example, say max possible XP was 1M, and someone killed me... but before I had killed someone of PK level 50, PK level 70, PK level 80 and PK level 60, the average of those is 65. So for killing me, the person would get 1m * .65, or 650K XP.
That even seems a bit to slow. Kill someone 10 times in an hour? I would lean more to 25% chunks.
Its really not though. Lots of things encourage quick return to pvp. Obelisk battles, shardfalls, city defense, things like that.
As a compromise, what about something like 15%?
Also, the fact that with each kill the person you are killing is worth less xp on top of losing the thing that determines their pvp worth (via loss of pvp level over time).
There is no restriction on bashing providing diminishing returns for example. As it is, with any decrease at all with the xp gain and loss of XP on death combine to actively slow the gain even with any sort of "farming" possible.
And of course, there is always a players out there that are willing to report transgressions that other players commit, as I'm sure you're well aware.
Edit; All of it being actively based on pvp level really does make the people unwilling to be farmed for the most part, especially if the pk level gain is relatively slowed (max of 1 pk level per kill now for example).
Edit: 25% chunks over a 1 hour cooldown sound about right to me. It's very rare when a shardfall runs on for more than 5 or so battles, so I don't think it'd have any real effect there.
Followed by N monolith battles for the people that lost their monoliths, which easily run into the dozens.
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Comments
EDIT:
See also "CLAN MYOOCBUDDIES TELL Hey, someone let me farm xp off of you."
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
(cmon, throw more at me!)
If someone is forced to roleplay to farm a couple of kills in order to beat the fuzz, I'm fine with that.
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
And here is what I have to say to that: "So what?"
So what if you've got people farming it? How much worse would that make the game? I think you are dramatically overestimating the effect this will have. A few basic limitations on it should make it more than fine. If somebody finds a creative way to abuse it, you shut down that creative way.
Hell, I think you'd be fine just making it so that only kills that would show up on your "Kills" list give you EXP.
What you are basically saying is this: "Dias(and the others I can't remember who farmed up the kills achievement with kill/res/renounce/repeat) exist, and because they exist the rest of you don't get to have cool things, because they can't be trusted not to abuse them and farm them."
And to that, I say: "Screw them. Don't punish the world because they can't stop themselves from acting like giant toolboxes."
The goal with this change should be to make things more inclusive, and to encourage more people to get out there and PvP and get hooked on PvP and buy credits to get better at PvP so that you can make things even more awesome(hopefully in ways that involve PvP).
And so, PvP should be rewarding for the player, and not just in the "It's fun and it's satisfying to beat the crap out of the enemy" way, but in a mechanical way that encourages new players to jump in. In a way that gives them an incentive to do something they might not otherwise be interested in, because PvP can hook you FAST. Just look at Aulani(<3).
And the best way to do that is with EXP, because, frankly, leveling in this game sucks. Questing is a possible thing, but it's very possible for one person to monopolize the quests, and it's slow, and you have to know everything to make it effective. Bashing is a tedious grinding thing that boils down to "get tanky enough to survive a thing and then push the kill button until that thing dies, then repeat it a few hundred thousand more times.
But PvP? PvP is awesome and engaging and fun. If you get people holding Caanae Fight Club so that they can level up through deathmatching and glorious battle, that's not a "creative way of farming it."
That's awesome.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
And I have to agree, the rest of us shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few.
Breakdown of team demonic based on theoretical amount of dying:
Ahkan: 80%
Menoch: 40%
The more they die in time period x, the less they're worth. Time period could be something like 20m.
The degree to which you'd have to farm this and make it profitable would be blatantly obvious. It'd be even easier to detect if you use the bloodbath-like mechanic. We'd be able to spot it and we could report it to you. After that, it's really on the admin how they want to play it. If you don't want it to be farmed, you need to Sparda someone early and without mercy. After that, no one wants to step out of line.
I'd also like to bring this up:
I've played/tried several of the IRE games, and the starting experience in all of them is virtually identical. Start your newbie and trudge through the starting area with your low/no skills. When you get out, find the next highest bashing area. Trudge through that. Repeat this until you've gained enough levels to get the health required to do anything else. You can quest or do other things, but this is the general pattern.
Imperian's always sort of pushed itself as the PvP game of IRE. Making it possible to gain decent levels primarily through PvP would be a huge step towards cementing this, as well as giving Imperian a definite leg up on the other games, because it would open up an entirely new way to level for new players.
Instead of the old "Start playing and grind till you get to the fun stuff", increasing PvP exp and introducing assist EXP could make PvP via shardfalls and Obelisks and such into a legitimate progression path. Hell, in Imperian right now, PvP is generally detrimental to your progression unless you're low leveled and pop an Aspect exp pinata. Making it so that participating in PvP is beneficial to new characters would change things around completely. Joining shardfalls and getting involved in PvP events would suddenly start being beneficial to your character, encouraging more people to get involved and interested.
Yeah, there's been some complaints in this thread about how this kind of change would lead to "a lot more stupid zergs and unhealthy gameplay", but what that complaint boils down to is this: "More people would get involved in PvP, and I don't want that". Dress it up as pretty as you want, that's what's at the core of it.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I don't see the XP gain from PVP as that high to start with, so not sure about both 1&2.
About number 3, what is multiples times? What about players being resurrected, startbusted, Aryana holders with anchor that get back to the fight in less than a minute?
Also, nothing on shared PVP xp?
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Also, an hour seems like a REALLY long timer.Hell, that means you only get EXP from the first kill in an Obelisk fight.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Best method I could think of would be similar to the mechanics of boss mobs. Give experience to everyone in the same circle(so you don't have anyone pre-kicking their allies to steal some of experience) as the killer that has performed an aggressive action against the victim within the past 60 seconds(to prevent people from following graced or other similar abuse).
Pretty please? I like keeping my OOC and pk as far apart as I can.
Edit: 25% chunks over a 1 hour cooldown sound about right to me. It's very rare when a shardfall runs on for more than 5 or so battles, so I don't think it'd have any real effect there.
Also, when splitting experience, I'd be sure to make sure people get smaller shares of the same base amount of experience gain, depending on the number of participants. Something like 60/40 for two combatants, 40/30/30 for three, 30/23/23/23, 25/18/18/18/18, and so on. Those numbers seem pretty fair to me.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created