Fighting a Bard

Mathiaus

When in combat with a bard, there are three major steps they need to take in order to kill you.

1. Have nuarinyu double afflict with Ta resonance.

2. Apply songs for possible transfix.

3. Upkeep on sketches.

To address the first step, resonance needs to be fully attained for the bard to be able to double afflict properly. Thankfully, Ketamine happens to be available to toxin users and is one of the completely trackable afflictions. What does Ketamine do, you may ask. It completely stops resonance gain. If the bard is affected with withered throat, the bard cannot gain resonance from the attacks they apply to you.

Secondly, Nuarinyu and Bedazzlement have limited afflictions they give.

Nuarinyu's list is: anorexia, chill, claustrophobia, dizziness, nausea, and stupidity.

Bedazzlement afflicts depending on the status of your deaf and blindness

Unblind: paralysis, dizziness, transfixion, paralysis/transfixion, or
dizziness/transfixion.

Blind and without a mindseye active: paralysis, dizziness,
paralysis/dizziness, or nothing.

Blind with a mindseye active: paralysis, dizziness, or nothing.

Blind and deaf without a mindseye active: nothing.

The Revelation songs ticks every 8 seconds, purging both deafness and blindness. Yoth is a flat 8 seconds (12 seconds with a Torc of Enunciation).

Dissonance gives a percentage based damage every tick.

Lullaby is every 8 seconds.

Cruel Lament can only be placed on the target if he or she is fully resonanting at least one note, and it makes all the other notes build at a slower rate by half once applied. This song helps afflictions placed by Nuarinyu add damage to Shaite and Rubait along with a base additive. Ta fully resonating also boosts Shaite Rubait damage.

Another major part of the bard's arsenel is his or her sketches. By either intimidating or destroying sketches, you take away 1/3 of the Bard's offensive capability.

Renegade requires the person to not have rebounding up and afflicts with oxalis/toxin, the toxin relying on what colour inks it possesses.

Hunter merely requires the target be unshielded, and can either do fireblast or sting. Fireblast gives sensitivity and fire damage while sting is simple formaldehyde.

Knight can dsl, engage, and raze for the bard.

Anyone with Beastbane can easily destroy the sketces and even the songbird which helps with restoration to mana and health.

Even with this information, I can imagine it is still difficult to fight a bard no matter how well your curing/defense holds up, which is why when classleads come around, we can resolve the masked afflictions/instant kantae/stun issues.

And so everyone knows, I have done my best to not purposely use instant kantae and myried(stun), but  a lot of you are still convinced for some odd reason that I still spam instant kantae like it's going out of style. Don't run away from me sending me tells back that you didn't want to be kantaed from resonance build while fighting me, cause I'm telling you straight up I will not go for an instant kantae and always try for the Cruel Lament damage kill. Instant kantae and myried are over powered, period.

Ahkan

1) Who fights without mindseye? Answer:  Nobody, give or take 1%. The 1% are people who get dinged by cleansing because cleansing is stupid.

2) Nausea and stupidity are good afflictions. Nuarinyu can't be -that- bad considering it's all you kids use.  Additionally, voice combos administer these masked affs relatively quickly.

2.1) Most skills have a limited affliction set.

3) Beast bane. This is in one skillset, in one circle on a seldom utilized profession. Headsup, It's warding. Everyone else has to 'attack sketch.' All while the bard is spamming songs/words/sketches. What happens when you kill the sketch? They tear another. Surprise! There are 3 sketches. While I'm hitting the sketch, I'm not hitting the bard (with ketamine. See 7).

4) A combo-able sting? Yes plz. Everyone else can only sting. This means there are now 2-3 masked afflictions per attack. One of them has a badass affliction list that reads ALL OF TOXINS. ALL. OF. TOXINS.

5) Bards don't need engage. Why do you ask? Time bombs shouldn't be able to stun you when you run from them.

6) Resonance is a bad mechanic. There's no way to stop resonance from building up. Once it's there, it's there. It's not even that hard to build up. Despite your claims to the moral high ground, I've seen you instagib someone with resonance when all other routes failed. They can't not run because we're running on the honor system here. If you've noticed, that system sucks because no one gives a crap.  At the end of the day you do what you have to to win. 

7) Ketamine. If this stops your offense you're not very good. Epidermal is a 1s cure. To stick ketamine you have to revamp your entire toxin strategy to build for salve stacks. This means you're ignoring important and useful afflictions like...everything else not salve stacking. There are also classes who don't have on-demand access to ketamine. I guess they're S.O.L?

At the end of the day, a majority of a bards offense is spamming masked afflictions while passively building up super doom weapons that enable kills you cannot avoid. This includes both kantae and cruel lament. Until such a time that people can stop resonance build up (again, ketamine is not the answer) bard is no fun for anyone to fight. Ever. At all.

Khizan

"hey guys it's totally cool to just stand and fight me I'm going try for the slow timebomb and not the fast one honest guys i swear"

Mathiaus

Khizan said:

"hey guys it's totally cool to just stand and fight me I'm going try for the slow timebomb and not the fast one honest guys i swear"

Cause limb breaking, attunement, bleeding, priest, among other skills sets are in no way shape or form a momentum-type strategy to kill someone standing in the same room, right?

Once instant kantae is gone and masked afflicting is shortened greatly, you won't have to worry so much about all that. You're basing this completely on what's going on now than what going to happen when it's fixed. If engage is really that much of a bother, and the majority of people seem to agree, then get rid of it. It'll open up another spot where I don't have to track it and reapply it all the time then and use an actual attack in its place.

Ahkan

The difference is you can cure all of those examples. What curing mechanic do I use to get rid of resonance?

Mathiaus

Shielding, hindering me, and of course running.

Also, the only note worth being afraid of is Ta.

Chi: Allows you to sing Voice words faster. The effect depends on how much the target is resonating with the Chi note.
Ta: This note increases the effect of certain power words, as listed below.
We: If the target is sufficiently resonating with the We note, your power words will bypass deafness.

The Ta note affects the following power words:
Shaite/Rubait: increased damage
Llan: more health restored
Myried: longer stun
Kawis: bypasses levitation entirely if sufficiently resonating
Nuarinyu: chance to hit with two affliction instead of one, higher resonance means higher chance
The other power words are unaffected.

I have a hard time already damage killing people with masked nuarinyu adding afflictions for damage and having cruel lament and Ta helping. Once Nuarinyu is unmasked, it's going to be very hard pulling in afflictions for damage, and Ta and Cruel Lament on their own don't add enough to simply let me bash you down till you're dead.

Resonance isn't this all mighty powerful thing that let's me go into god mode, it's the ability to stack nuaryinu quickly to the point where I'm disrupting you and making you unable to hit me back at all. Even without Ta fully resonating I can usually get people to be disrupted fairly quickly. It's simple to remove that wall of masked afflictions and actually allow the target to hit back, making it an actual fight.

Mathiaus

Honestly, if they really, really want to, make it work like mage with the attumements being cured. That way I have to somehow just stack that way to get attunement built for damage and what not.

Septus

I'm fairly sure the comment about expecting instant kantae is partially directed at me after yesterday. To be clear, you very well may not use it. At the end of the day though, I'd not expect you not to. The chance of you damage killing some people (say, me in templar) is very low, and expecting you not to use your (admittedly stupid) alternative to that problem isn't really sensible. After 30 minutes of two people flailing at each other with one trying to get attacks through confusion/masked stupidity/etc and tanking away, I'm pretty sure just about any person with the option is going to say "ok whatever", and hit that kill button.

This isn't a reflection on you: it is a product of resonance being a bad mechanic. Hence, people are (and should) run to let it drain. As unfortunate and tedious as it is, that is the only solution available to people, and noone is going to sit there and just hope you're not feeling like you want to go grab a sandwich and don't feel like a drawn out fight.

Mathiaus

Brishi among others have done the same too, not just you.

There are other ways, like intimidating or sending my sketches away. I auto recall them, and that takes balance. If you spam that, I'm not hitting, which means if I don't call them back, there goes 1/3rd of my offense. If I do, I'm not hitting you, and the resonance goes down really, really quick if it's not attuned.

Ahkan

Ahkan said:

The difference is you can cure all of those examples. What curing mechanic do I use to get rid of resonance?

@Mathiaus You didn't answer the question. If you're going to compare your class to priest, limb damage, afflictions. What do I have to do to cure resonance?

It can't be hinders, because unless I'm a wardancer, I'm not killing you.

It can't be shield spam for 60s because I'm still not killing you.

It can't be running because I'm still not killing you.

If this is your goal: "It's simple to remove that wall of masked afflictions and actually allow the target to hit back, making it an actual fight." Then why are all of your 'cures' and 'counters' to resonance not actually fighting?

Kryss

Problem with Bard is their own offense builds momentum way too quickly. Not so much that resonance itself is super fast, but the hinders, masked afflictions and disables that only grow more intense as the fight goes on make it increasingly hard to retaliate. The other thing is, Bard has access to faster writhe time and passive healing of afflictions/health/etc which makes it even harder to stop their offense because they just keep coming.

Sarrius

The defense to an entire class should never be 'run', because that logic dictates really 'to win the fight, don't fight'. No class should be balanced on that paradigm.

Bard doesn't need hamhanded classleads that 'fix it', it needs a gutting and total remake. I would rather have Achaea's Swashbuckling jerkasses than Imperian's nonsense -all roleplay and theme be damned. I would rather sacrifice the Bard guild's identity for the sake of a well made class, sorry.

Resonance is dumb, masked afflictions as a mainstay are dumb. Giving a class a toolbox of the rest of their circle's best staples was a stupid idea and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying that one skill in one class in one circle is justification to be as heinous as it is. Intimidate costs eq to your balance. Terrify costs shards and eq. Killing it means I am getting pumped full of incurable resonance.

I'd rather move resonance to the spark/taint model if we absolutely must keep it, with each of the notes being modifiers to each word and costing xyz meter.

Edit: obviously the notes would provide new effects in the paragraph above. current ones are dumb.

Mathiaus

Sarrius said:

Bard doesn't need hamhanded classleads that 'fix it', it needs a gutting and total remake.

Again, it needs a total remake again. It's been done once before.

Sarrius

I don't think you know what the word total means.

Ahkan

Maybe he misunderstood that Garryn was the serial class revamper.

Ambrose

This is from a limited perspective, but I think I have some of the same issues with bard as I do with Outrider. Namely that I think passive entourages are a terrible idea - they are spammy (in the case of Outrider anyway, due to number of pets), lazy methods of attack, the intimidate/summon cycle is drab, etc. I give it a pass on some classes where the pets are more active (see Hunter, I think Predator animals work this way too?). But frankly, it drives me batty that a large part of my offense is centered around summon ungodly number of pets; order pets kill; and then largely ignore them, sit back, and do my thing which so far consists of either spamming longslash or delivering salve toxins. Bard has kind of a similar thing going on (better on the number of ents, but worse on the intimdiate/summon cycle, do sketches still have a built in courage of 0?). I'll also give a pass on knights because their pets don't seem to be quite such a huge part of their offense?

But largely, passive ents are just boring to me.

I'm not qualified enough to speak on other issues people have with bard, so I'll leave it at that...

Kryss

Outrider pets also have an active component with surges which plays an important (much more so then their standard attacks) part in the classes offense.

Dicene

Unless I missed it, he never said he didn't want a revamp, he's just saying that he wants to classlead it to be less douchey so he doesn't feel so dirty using it, at least until a revamp rolls up. (AFAIK, Garryn hasn't announced who is getting beat with the revamp stick next)

Mathiaus

Ambrose said:

This is from a limited perspective, but I think I have some of the same issues with bard as I do with Outrider. Namely that I think passive entourages are a terrible idea - they are spammy (in the case of Outrider anyway, due to number of pets), lazy methods of attack, the intimidate/summon cycle is drab, etc. I give it a pass on some classes where the pets are more active (see Hunter, I think Predator animals work this way too?). But frankly, it drives me batty that a large part of my offense is centered around summon ungodly number of pets; order pets kill; and then largely ignore them, sit back, and do my thing which so far consists of either spamming longslash or delivering salve toxins. Bard has kind of a similar thing going on (better on the number of ents, but worse on the intimdiate/summon cycle, do sketches still have a built in courage of 0?). I'll also give a pass on knights because their pets don't seem to be quite such a huge part of their offense?

But largely, passive ents are just boring to me.

I'm not qualified enough to speak on other issues people have with bard, so I'll leave it at that...

Sketches aren't passive. Sketches have a separate balance that requires input.

A revamp would be awesome. No sketches? Cool swashbuckling? No passive song s? I'm in.

Ahkan

Too late. Already had one. How about we nerf your best kill mechanic (even if it -is- broken) and give you nothing in return.

We call this move...the defiler.

Iluv

We should have bard defiler revamp betas.

Ambrose

Kryss said:

Outrider pets also have an active component with surges which plays an important (much more so then their standard attacks) part in the classes offense.

Mmmm, fair enough - but, having an active component and being an active thing (see basilisk) are two different things. But now I am mostly just complaining. (see below for a little bit of further explanation)

Mathiaus said:

This is from a limited perspective, but I think I have some of the same issues with bard as I do with Outrider. Namely that I think passive entourages are a terrible idea - they are spammy (in the case of Outrider anyway, due to number of pets), lazy methods of attack, the intimidate/summon cycle is drab, etc. I give it a pass on some classes where the pets are more active (see Hunter, I think Predator animals work this way too?). But frankly, it drives me batty that a large part of my offense is centered around summon ungodly number of pets; order pets kill; and then largely ignore them, sit back, and do my thing which so far consists of either spamming longslash or delivering salve toxins. Bard has kind of a similar thing going on (better on the number of ents, but worse on the intimdiate/summon cycle, do sketches still have a built in courage of 0?). I'll also give a pass on knights because their pets don't seem to be quite such a huge part of their offense?

But largely, passive ents are just boring to me.

I'm not qualified enough to speak on other issues people have with bard, so I'll leave it at that...

Sketches aren't passive. Sketches have a separate balance that requires input. A revamp would be awesome. No sketches? Cool swashbuckling? No passive song s? I'm in.

I didn't realize that - they didn't use to be IIRC, wasn't it just a throw and forget mechanism? Pray they didn't intimidate them? But anyways, in regards to the last part - I'm for fewer passive attack abilities... they are just boring. I'll give it a limited pass on some things, but I would be up for reducing this A LOT. 

But, all that said... there are so many things on my list of things that I think would be a good idea to update/overhaul... bard, druid, defiler, knights (really all of demonic for that matter sans summoner), somewhere WAY down the list, I'd like to see the Outrider entourage dissipate... a lot of AM should probably see a reduction, though I think overhaul is probably going a little far for any class except Templars. Some of it just seems like mediocre holdovers from other IRE games and so much of that has been on the chopping block lately that I'd like to see it continue (I was ecstatic when I came back to see bonding and healing condemned to the realms of the forgotten). But basically it amounts to wishing Jeremy & Co. were chained to their desks, working nonstop (which seems slightly unreasonable to request of a staff that is so awesome and has already improved the game so much in the time I've been gone).

Kryss

Outrider has already had a major revamp lately. The six animals they have (which you also get to customize the types of to a degree, which is great for flavor) are not there to be a spammy sit back and watch sort of thing, they are a major part of the classes offense. Annnd demonic is in a better place balance wise (minus tweaks here and there and Defiler) then many other things really. It's certain classes in the other two circles and the way the classes work together that needs not so much an overhaul, but at least a good looking into come classleads. But in regards to the topic, all of this is neither here nor there.

Mathiaus

As sincerely as I can put this, if I could get a full refund on all my bard artis and everthing put toward the class, I'd invest it into another class and have bard deleted all together. It's a crap class, I get it. Someone reminds me every single day.

It's not like I roll with retardation and web and transfix type of deal, or sit there and ramp up resonance till I can instant Kantae. For some reason I still try to not do just that and fight in a way that isn't lame, even with the constant ridicule and badgering of people.

It is what it is. I'll change with whatever is given to the class, or even switch entirely if given the chance, who knows. I'm not against the changes, as much as some of you might believe otherwise.

 

Khizan

That would ring far more truly if you hadn't bounced back and from between Bard and Lorekeeper half a dozen times already in a seemingly endles cycle of "nope, battleaxe still doesn't just beat people to death, back to win button I go".

Mathiaus

It was once. And now I have both.

Knight, for me, helps with group damage and utility.

Bard helps with my 1v1 and CC.

Kryss

Unmask Nuarinyu, expand the affliction choices and allow the Bard to specify.
Remove Hunter sketch Sting and add more variety of affliction choices to the sketches in general.

These would be my first points. Basically the beginning of trying to get Bard away from the realm of masked affliction rng fest and into that of skillful use and tracking of afflictions. From here resonance and all needs looking at to make a way in which said skillful use of afflictions (possibly with directly linking certain afflictions to resonance) allows Bard to work toward a kill that isn't instant Kantae.


Edit: All part of my overarching plan to lessen the effectivity of mashing a damage/timebomb button and bring Magick and Antimagick in line with the better balance that Demonic has.

Sarrius

Or just remake Bard. You know, like any sensible person would at this rate. The amount of tweaks over the years, and their severity, should be an indicator that the class was broken from the get-go. The class has always been stupid, from inception to now. A beta-less soft rewrite was not enough, and actually did more damage than it did good.

Also, Magick has Mage, Hunter, and Renegade for 'complicated affliction tracking: the comprehensive guidebook on ruining stock curing's day' players. Why don't we consider the concept of moving away from that lineup? Pure affliction classes are not something magick wants or needs. I know they don't need a pure damage class either, because even post-nerfs, Druid will probably be positioned OK for that slot, but another Affliction Gauntlet Class is just not a refreshing concept for Magick. My ideal remake for Bard would position them more in the 'swashbuckling jerkass' lineup, with keeping a very tweaked Voice (no resonance or stuns or masked afflictions), a condensed acrobatics + swordplay set (swordplay put here, likely disembowel or a twist-that-scales-off-affs, since designing the class means we can design around that whereas with WD we cannot), and a third setup being something like Howling from Aetolia crossed with the more interesting effects of the old Runelore circle effects (interweave these three songs for effect XYZ in lieu of the three song's effects). It's my dream remake, nobody likes the idea, but hey, that doesn't stop me from daydreaming) - I want to get away from the opportunity costless concept of Artistry (you can have ALL your sketches out? Really?), the toxicity of resonance (gain faster masked affs, stuns, and peace by giving masked affs and peace and stun, cool idea!), and the spammy instrument-juggling Thespia that is riddled with free 300+ CR artifacts, a free purity necklace, etc - that isn't a Bard identity, it's a pile of nonsense that is detrimental to overarching balance. Need I remind you all that Befuddle still gives passive actual dodge chance, toxin-dodging and all?

EDIT: There is a reason why game design companies bin stupid concepts when they don't work or become antiquated. Storm in MTG is a good example - it was absolutely detrimental to game design, so they stopped making it. They tried to 'fix it', it singed them for two years, they decided to just never do it again. It contends in older formats to this day (where it has suitable counters), but they specifically made a cut-off and selective bans to protect less 'aged' formats from the monstrous game-ending effects the mechanic has. Other examples include 'most of the unfun **** in World of Warcraft', etc. These things are removed, lessened, remade to remove the anti-fun aspect from the game.

Khizan

Kryss said:

trying to get Bard away from the realm of masked affliction rng fest and into that of skillful use and tracking of afflictions.

 Because what Magick really needs is yet another affliction-primary class pigeonholed into a glass-cannon statpack. Yes. That will solve everything.

Kryss

The only pigeonhole is the one you put yourself into. Mage can play a variety of statpacks each of which lean toward a different role. The same goes for Assassin. And Bard. And Druid. And Runeguard. Hunter not so much, that I will concede to.

Lionas

Yeah, who would want to play in a circle where all but one profession is affliction-based?