Veil of the Obtenebrate

Ahkan

Veil of the Obtenebrate: 2000 credits

  - Hides you from nearly all mortal abilities that can pinpoint your

    location.

  - Owning a Veil (not just borrowing one), allows you to cut past

    the Veil defence of an opponent when locating him or her. However,

    this will generally only work for one-time abilities, like 'sense'.

    Owning a veil will not aid you in sensing with abilities that trace 

    someone on an on-going basis, like seraph trace or forest track.

  - Does NOT hide you from abilities that do more than simply locate

    you, such as Bonding tracking.

Honestly, I think this artifact is flawed and does not belong in a game where we like to endorse beating the crap out of each other. Like the Raksha band, this is used to actively avoid pk by denying people access to your location so they can't kick the crap out of you. Purchase of this artifact has motivated aspiring butt kickers to purchase this artifact so that they can pick up the perk of being able to detect other veil wearers giving the ability to kick their butts (I miss profanity). As with many things, the counter-veil purchase does not live up to the 2000cr buy in for one glaring reason: passive detection.

  - Hides you from nearly all mortal abilities that can pinpoint your

    location.

Pinpoint is the key word here. Mechanically speaking, pinpoint reports a room name, like so:

You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Aleutia.

You see that Aleutia is at The Redwood Path.

Many active seeking abilities -are- pinpoint. Veil should beat this. Despite the fact it doesn't fit the game, I"m ok with this. Counter veils bypass this. It's cool.

Detection:These do not allow PINPOINT determination of location, only presence or absence. Like so:

Your foreboding stone glows, warning you that Aleutia is nearby. 

I now know that Aleutia has moved one room within the whole area of Khandava. I cannot pinpoint her location if she has a veil. I just know she's here. Veil should not block this, but it does. Counter veils do not remove this block. Once you have a veil, you can never be 'detected'. By the definition of the skill, you are not providing a pinpoint location. Furthermore, it's doing more than a 'location' skill. It's showing your movement within a general area.
Skills covered here: telesense, bloodscent, foreboding (I probably forgot a few)

Let's be honest here. For 2000cr you're immune to having your position zeroed in on. I don't like it, but that's fair. For 2000cr we can purchase the ability to find other veil wearers. This is also fair, albeit shameless. Veil's should not function as a half phase, constant evade mechanic with respect to area detection abilities that do not report exact location. If you're not willing to concede that point, veils should not be immune to area detection of other veil users. If we're going to leave this artifact in, could we make it behave a little more sensibly?

Ambrose

EDIT: Sorry, I was being dingy and misunderstood your complaint being more about counterveil - nevermind, I agree completely

Sarrius

I don't even have to buy a veil - AMs resident veil owners have scripts to farsee when I ask.

I think veils are a stupid artifact that shouldn't exist, but they cost 600 dollars and people still buy them for some reason, so..

Lionas

I bought a veil to bypass other veils, and was angry to learn it didn't work with bloodscent and foreboding. I immediately wanted a refund. I'd be pleased to see veil bypass other veils on those types of abilities.

Dias

The veil is an odd artifact, honestly. Ahkan makes a good point on the Foreboding stone front. I wouldn't be against the deletion of the Artifact if everyone who purchased it was able to gain a full refund.

Ahkan

I don't think anyone who has one can ask for a 'full' refund. It's been effectively blocking peekayz for 1,2,3,4,5,6 years. People have been getting -more- than what they paid for in that time frame. You can't expect 100% refund after a year of ownership, let alone 4 or 5.

Dias

1500 credits instead of 1333 :P

Lionas

The artifact would be keeping most of its functionality, with the removal of some passive location skills (bloodscent et al, foreboding) only for people also owning a veil. I wouldn't offer any refund - the item functioned as advertised for some period after they bought it, and no guarantee was offered with it. If you bought the credits with real world currency, you were spending that money on credits, which you received, not on the item you purchased with those credits. While I'm sure they would offer a refund, people demanding that refund wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Dias

I was speaking for the deletion, not for alteration of the artifact. If it is altered that's fine. I wouldn't be against bloodscent and all that stuff working. 

Khizan

Historically, major artifact changes have been accompanied by a 100% refund.

When my Shield of the Protector got changed to a surcoat, I got an option for a 100% refund, and I got another chance for a 100% refund when the surcoat was modified to a 15% resist from a 15% absorb chance(Indirectly. 66% of the new price was 100% of the original price). When the Gem of Cloaking was changed, I got an option for a 100% refund. When endurance and willpower were removed, those artifacts got 100% refunds, and I logged on Syric just a few days ago to find a 100% refund for his sanguis pendant.

It's not unreasonable to expect one when an artifact suffers a major functionality change.

Personally, I think the artifact should prevent any skill that can pinpoint your location exactly, unless they have a Veil too, but that it should allow Farsight to give me a general location. Never more than that, even if I'm in the area, but I should at least be able to get a rough idea of your location so I can go roam the area looking for you if I want. I'm tired of this "Oh,you want to maybe take that bounty on Ageranu? There's  2000 credit buy-in!"

Khizan

Iluv snaps his fingers in front of Khalim, whose visage warps slightly.
H:700/640 M:310/310 B:0 <eb> <db>
Khalim takes a drink from a sinn vixen vial.
H:700/640 M:310/310 B:0 <eb> <db>
A shimmering translucent shield forms around Sadey.
H:700/640 M:310/310 B:0 <eb> <db>
Iluv leaves to the ether.
H:700/640 M:310/310 B:0 <eb> <db> ql
Kinsarmar Crossroads. (lost) (City of Kinsarmar.)

Where are they? I don't know! They're somewhere in Kinsarmar, but nobody has spent the 2k credit buyin to be able to find them, so I guess it's time to go facecheck the entire city.

That is ****. 

Lionas

Khizan said:

Personally, I think the artifact should prevent any skill that can pinpoint your location exactly, unless they have a Veil too, but that it should allow Farsight to give me a general location. Never more than that, even if I'm in the area, but I should at least be able to get a rough idea of your location so I can go roam the area looking for you if I want. I'm tired of this "Oh,you want to maybe take that bounty on Ageranu? There's  2000 credit buy-in!"

Khizan said:

Iluv snaps his fingers in front of Khalim, whose visage warps slightly.
H:700/640 M:310/310 B:0 <eb> <db>
Khalim takes a drink from a sinn vixen vial.
H:700/640 M:310/310 B:0 <eb> <db>
A shimmering translucent shield forms around Sadey.
H:700/640 M:310/310 B:0 <eb> <db>
Iluv leaves to the ether.
H:700/640 M:310/310 B:0 <eb> <db> ql
Kinsarmar Crossroads. (lost) (City of Kinsarmar.)

Where are they? I don't know! They're somewhere in Kinsarmar, but nobody has spent the 2k credit buyin to be able to find them, so I guess it's time to go facecheck the entire city.

That is ****. 

So you've changed your mind from "can get location but nothing more" to "veil shouldn't hide you in area"?

Khizan

No, but I'd like something to let me bypass it while inside a circle-aligned city to prevent the "raider with Veil, guardrush randomly!" thing.

Maybe a shard power you have to activate at a generator or something. 

Khizan

Double post to say:

It's honestly the first time I can recall that something like that's actually happened to me. Back 'in the day', the Veil was rare and nobody who fought had one. I can't remember any specific time or any specific enemy that put me in the position of "unable to locate solo raider because nobody around me has paid the buy-in." Had I thought of it, my previous post would have included a proviso regarding the Veil's effectiveness inside of an enemy city.

The Veil is one of the problems that really only affects a game at the end-tier, when it stops being "Oh, Galt has a Veil, but Galt has everything" and it starts being "Oh, Lionas/Ageranu/Dias/Iluv/Siath/Aten/Juran/Arakis/etc has a Veil and so you regularly cannot locate half their team or so unless you've paid the 2k leet tax."

Dias

I can completely agree with Khizan on the point of not needing a 2,000 credit investment in order to locate someone who could be slaughtering people within the city. I think that the shard skill would be a perfect opportunity for this to be 'partially' nixed. 

Remove the Level 4 True Sight Research - Shard Wallsight. Replace it with SHARD SEEK [RED] in order to see a veiled/phased/blackwinded person. That way it encompasses most avenues of being undetectable.

Lionas

Must be activated at a generator, only works if the target is in a circle-aligned org (cities, townes). Veil in particular, but also phase and blackwind, shouldn't be defeated world-wide by a single red shard. It also shouldn't disable the effect of soulmask etc.

Dias

I can agree with that as well. One time seek, red shard, at the generator, only activates if they are in the city/towne. Sounds feasible enough to me.

Ahkan

It's not very feasible because it's tied to the obelisk. Red shard is also a huge limiting factor that restricts most of the game. Then it's red shard to detect, red shard to disrupt. Out of red shards? Get griefed. Blue shards make it too easy.

Better idea, whenever you engage in a hostile action, your veil can't hide your presence for 5m.

Lionas

I'd make it last a minute rather than be one-off, and decouple it from obelisks.
EDIT: Red shard to bypass 2k credits sounds fine, though.

Khizan

I'm cool with phase and blackwind. They're class abilities with restrictions that inherently disable offensive activity; when they want to go offensive, they have to lose the protection of the ability. The problem is that Iluv can sit there wearing his Veil while launching attacks.

I'd say to just make it cost multiple blue shards to activate the ability for a reasonable length of time. Red shards are uncommon enough to make "Goddamnit, Iluv is back and now I need to burn another red shard to find out where he is" a thing that's basically unsustainable and which will eventually result in the exact same situation we have now.

"A red shard to counteract 2k credits" might seem reasonable. In other cases, it would be reasonable. But in this case, it's "2k credits to let people act like an undetectable **** inside cities", which is a thing I'm pretty much not cool with in general and so I don't mind a cheaper cost to counteracting it.

Dias

Research sticks with the circle regardless of holding the Obelisk at the time. I think it should be a single red shard to see a veiled person, blue for phased/blackwind or what-have you. Burning a red shard to counterattact a 2,000 dollar credit for a few minutes is a tad sad for the purchasers.

Really up to whatever Jeremy thinks is balanced for it.

Khizan

It's burning it to see them when they're running around in your city. That's it. That doesn't need an expensive cost, really.

At a red shard per view, there's really no reason to do it at all, because it's not sustainable enough to be worth using.

Selthis

Make it subtract from the city's stockpile of shards in the at the rate of 10 shardcount per seek.  If you're doing it at the generator anyway, no reason it shouldn't pay for it.  It would just show up in mil log like all other shard expenditures, make it a pollable city power so it only goes to the positions you want it so a random citizen can't do it 500 times and drain a city.

Edit or more favourable rate than 10/seek maybe 7 or 5 per seek. It should also  have some sort of eq cost and maybe a short cooldown to prevent someone gettin mad while in a position of power and doing a You have regained Balance  = hahaha, seek ability to drain shards trigger. 

Dias

That is a good idea Selthis. You win.

Ahkan

Man, if this isn't coded well, can you imagine the river of ironic tears when this is used offensively?

Khizan

I dislike the per-use fee, because the way people move and the way that people have to use farsee, I could easily burn several full shardfalls worth of shards just trying to locate one veiled raider who doesn't just turtle-and-camp. 

Making the cost something that's not worth using means there's no point to making the change at all. It's not worth burning a full shardfall of city shards just to catch somebody on ONE raid. 

Sam

What about the veil buff dropping for a time after an offensive action at another player? 1-5 minutes or something? 

Oh what Ahkan said ^ I would think only offensive actions towards players because stopping the safe bashing would dilute the value too much I think

Ageranu

Seriously, it's a 2000 cr artifact, it shouldn't be able to be just bypassed because you are a member of an org that researched that shard skill.  Yes, it is a pain in the **** to find people, that's the point.

Oh noes, I can't find Ageranu easily in my city.. because he managed to sneak in and find a good spot to hide out.. but there are a number of ways to limit my offense, or find me.. prism comes to mind..

I can't think of any city that doesn't have at least one person with this artifact, the fact that you want to change it because you'd rather have 3-4 different classes and other artifacts shouldn't negate the fact that I saved up a butt load of credits to buy one.

(I'm waiting for the 'woe is me, shut up Ageranu posts too, but seriously.. )

Sarrius

There's a distinction here that maybe you don't get: a majority of players think that cities and councils should be sanctuaries, virtually free of potential conflict or interruption for whatever floats their fancy at any given time. I personally do not share this distinction, but I err closer to that side of the argument than I do to the other extreme (which is the belief that nowhere should be safe, ever). The effort involved to infiltrate a city is not staggering. The actual 'difficulty' of raiding comes at how easy a city can eject the offenders - but that is another thread whatsoever.

All a veil does is make people who like being nuisances inside your city that much more difficult to stop making them from being nuisances. It isn't a significant combat advantage - it is a significant griefing advantage. It forces the defenders to search a city room by room because the veil prevents any pinpointing of the raider's room, effectively giving the raider more time to escape or relocate to set up shop in another branch of the city to continue their antics (killing players stupid enough to engage them, killing NPCs, setting up contrived Rube Goldberg machines of traps/walls/skills to pull people in to them and away from guards, etc).

It is a 2,000 credit combat artifact whose purpose is to reduce combat engagement. It promotes a playstyle that honestly sticks a chode in other people's peanut butter.

Apoloc

The way I see it, you wanna dump 2k credits into this artifact, have at it hoss.  You'll rank up there with people who pay extra for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches without the crust.  It's a luxury.  It's not game breaking in my view, there are certainly more annoying things out there.

 

Ageranu

Sarrius said:  It isn't a significant combat advantage - it is a significant griefing advantage. 

Hello Raksha Band, artifact tracking pet, mark return and any other number of skills that provide griefing advantages.

I must admit, I'm the other side of the scale to you, nowhere should be safe.. if you can get in my city, and I'm stupid enough to stand there without interaction/defences.. you SHOULD kill me.  City raids -used- to be a fun mechanic of the game.  The good ol' days and all that, of struggling your **** off to eject an invader who wasn't there for any other reason that to kick your **** for fun. For a game that revolves around PK, and people wanting to PK.. we sure do a lot of.. "This place is safe", and "you have no reason to hurt me"