That's awesome. Here's a few more things that could use looking at while you're at it:
Monks keep kai through death, so that they get out of Dis with a full load to go right back into the fight. \
Limb damage is really screwy with this, because people get back out of Dis before your limbs can reset. You can kill a Warden and then lose the rematch as soon as they enter the room because your legs are still set up. You can't even break your own legs to clear them, because the self-harm timer is longer than the death timeout.
The death penalty is a bit too mild; with no loss for further deaths, it's basically mandatory for early deaths to zerg back in thoughtlessly, even without Aryana.
There's two things I'd like to see change with regard to the death penalty.
The first is that I'd like to see an offensive penalty alongside the defensive penalty, most likely in the form of increased balance/eq times. Right now, I can charge back in with 3 stacks of the penalty and I'm still at 100% offensive potential. Since every hit I take is a hit that didn't hit somebody else, it's really effective for the cannon fodder to do this. If I stop targeting Septus to swat Brishi for the 3rd time in the same fight, I've just given up a huge chunk of momentum. If Brishi were qjabbing 45% slower for charging in on his third death, he'd be massively less effective. He'd still be a net gain, but a reduced one, and he'd have to give thought to letting his penalty to drop to restore his effectiveness.
The second is that I think that your penalty levels should wear off consecutively, rather than concurrently. Right now, you clear all your penalty stacks at once. This means that there's no real penalty for repeatedly zerging back into combat. If I zerg back in three times before my team is finally defeated and out of the fight, my L3 penalty will wear off at the same time as their L1 penalty, which really encourages me to zerg back in immediately and frequently. If the penalty levels wore off consecutively, charging back into battle would be a thing you did to swing close fights and graveyard zerging would no longer be 100% optimal.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
It gets really frustrating when you're only ever losing PK exp because you put all your enemies on 0% PK exp status and then everything past that point is pure loss.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
It gets really frustrating when you're only ever losing PK exp because you put all your enemies on 0% PK exp status and then everything past that point is pure loss.
You must be talking about "brishi-combat"? I wouldn't mind a bigger debuff after X amount of deaths if you keep stacking the existing penalties. After a while you should be forced to take a breather for a short while. Currently it's all in favor for tools, you can still stand outside the room as a ranger using broads / barbed and so on.
Go back to killing Kliko who is spamming hands like a jerkface
Brishi returns again
Swat Brishi (limb damage 75%)
WHY IS KLIKO NOT DEAD YET
Brishi returns again, finally breaks your limb.
Incendiary.
Ffffffffff
Speaking of Brishi/Kryss/Mathiaus, I think Juran's prediction has come to pass. There needs to be some sort of xp loss or some punishment for these derps acting like derps. I'm all for rocking the boat and pushing the envelop to stir things up, it's fun. On the flip side, they'll die 4-8 times to guards at no real penalty.
Alright, so the new death changes have been for a while and it has increased imperian conflict by a hell lot, but it has some really big issues. We were all aware of the zergings that had started because death didn't have any consequences anymore, but after Kinsarmar got annihilated, i'm picking this up again.
I wasn't around on what happened but from information, it sounded like they just charged in and kill guards. They did some techniques like forcing them to move and all but they all just went and killed guard one by one, eventually reducing the clot and easily killing the whole group. Since it doesn't matter if you die a trillion times, they can repeatedly do it. This is not a win situation because Kinsarmar has to pay about 3 million in guard cost for this, plus other monolith and siege cost.
Death changes really, really need to be reviewed. I would still be fine if you kept the changes outside city/council but if they are raiding, death needs to be severe, like heavy loss on experience, or having a grace limit of not being able to enter that city. Its ridiculous on how much work they have to do just because AM raided when there were only like 5 people in Kinsarmar. This has turn into a zerg contest and is pretty much ruining the game for a lot of people.
I like PK. I don't like hardcore PK where you make the game unfun for everyone. Death needs to be seriously reviewed and urgently, because it's such an important part of Imperian
For what I was present for, we did not kill guards in a steady stream of bodies. KC didn't have enough in the clot to insta us at ALL, so we went in, killed mages, and ran. With istani dead, we were able to run and kill two or three knights at a time before bailing. I personally never died to the KC clot. We could have done this with old death too, because every mage died in a single go. It was not an exchange of 7-8 player lives for 1 mage. I don't know what the deal was before that, but we did not abuse anything to do with new death.
We did not force any guards to move in any way but the traditional way of giving them a reason to move - which means that the reason we were capable of this falls solely in the realm of player error. Kinsarmar left a weak spot open and a very small group was able to bust it open from there.
In short, we would have been able to do this without new death, and at honestly not much slower of a pace. Once your city is navigable due to no siege, you run the risk of guards being killed at a much leisurely pace. They made their siege in easy to approach areas, and targetted those areas in minimal fashions. This made it survivable.
In short, new death is not to blame for this. I know you don't want to hear that, but we did not zerg the guards over and over until they died. Elite status guards make that impossible. We were capable of this due to an incredibly large error on Kinsarmar's part. In the old death, the only difference would have been the pace, and not really more than an extra 30m. I died a total of twice during my part, and it was to me walking on the main siege line before we dismantled that portion.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
@Sarrius: You're wrong, you have monks using telepathy to order guards away from clots. Just because you became a follower in the aftermath doesn't mean it didn't happen.
In our credit - the 'die a trillion times' consisted of mistakes that were largely just committed due to laziness (ie, passing the main siege line without separator and a few tests to see if the siege line had been drained enough to tank) ... and there were not really that many deaths... especially for how long it took. I think I may have died 3-5 times throughout the multi-hour ordeal. Second, when i joined the fray - I made it a 4 man raid - Kryss, Menoch, Vanmoriel, and myself. At that time there were 8 Kinsarmarians, a few of which were combat capable and a couple that could move guards (practically, when you look at our team, Kryss and Menoch would be the two primary combatants with Vanmoriel and myself being cannon fodder, and so your 5-people in Kinsarmar issue when we were outnumbered is a little silly).
While I don't necessarily disagree with you on death, let's not present skewed information because I think as much as anything it reveals problems in the city attack and defense system as much as the death system. Change the death system and all you would've accomplished for us would be to slow us down and make it take a much longer process (food for thought - I joined at about 11 pm CST... I left at 2:30 am CST... Kryss and Menoch had been at it long before I joined, that is a whole lot of time for NO ONE in Kinsarmar to do ANYTHING about it... to only change death in this case would've made it just take a lot longer because no one in Kinsarmar did anything about it).
EDIT: @Cassius - we didn't have a monk when I joined. There were still 8 Kinsarmarians and a couple that could've moved guards. We killed most of the guards well after something could've been done about your monk issues.
EDIT2: This is an aside, but I still think this raises the issue of whether raids are something that are supposed to fit in Imperian. If they are, the penalty for what we did is a little high. If not, then what we did probably shouldn't be able to happen, death system or no.
@Sarrius: You're wrong, you have monks using telepathy to order guards away from clots. Just because you became a follower in the aftermath doesn't mean it didn't happen.
To be fair, I wasted half of your trebuchet ammo and bashed knights on the guard clot myself for a very long period of time. I was definitely not a follower.
Brishi came in after I did. Monks are incapable of using telepathy on mobiles, and they are incapable of commanding people the necessary level of inputs to dismantle a guard clot without SOMEBODY noticing. Once again, it comes down to player error: you guys messed up big time.
You gave security aide to a chronic AFKer or somebody that can't see past their own nose? Not our fault. Not new death's fault.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
We didn't goonswarm the guards. The guard clot at KC that Alvetta/Rosalie rushed us with broke up and chased us through the sewers. The clot was split up into manageable groups of 5 to 6 and then walled in and killed off group by group. Any deaths were attributable to guard rushes or actual player kills (which, believe me, I did rack up plenty of damage debuffs from.)
About a dozen people in Kinsarmar received credit for helping defend against our raid. There was only around 4 of us at any given point in time, with others coming and going. The actual raid lasted for several hours through Eastern primetime.
This was a conflict that could have just as easily been propagated under the old system as it was the new one. No reasonable adjustment to the mechanics will change that. I understand that some people like to get mad when they lose, but it's Kinsarmar's own defense tactics at fault here, not the game mechanics (which in reality greatly favour the attackers. Shard disrupt w red;order guard move w;w;shard wall e all in the same balance with server-side separator? GG.)
Raid has been my concern but I'm not primarily here to discuss that, I'm here to discuss that death changes and thus the thread. Even before this raid, I've had a few cases where I've gone nuts just because that person won't stop raiding or attacking me because death doesn't mean crap and he can go on forever till I just quit. Its frustrating. It's stupid. It needs a change
Death changes helped you a lot. Do not deny that. They gave your people a lot of motivation to get involved. Had a guy like Djen been losing 10% overall on a guards death, he'd quit on the second death
I can't help but ask what the old death system has over the new one when you had nobody online to stop us anyways? Or when you couldn't stop them from returning to the city when you did have people on? New death is something you cry about when the speed at which your enemy returns in the issue. Our return speed was irrelevant in this.
The old death system, what, a slightly steeper XP penalty? XP is laughable. It doesn't matter. You can back those losses with an hour of bashing.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
If the old death was laughable, why did we see a tremendous increase in Imperian conflict? Why do we have people more actively getting involved? Why do we have higher annoyance, complains and zergs about this? It is because it did something that the old system didn't. It's not that hard to see.
The old system was a barrier. You say you don't care about experience, but you do and I don't want to make it personal so I won't go in how you do. Think about it yourself.
Also, I have only lost 10% overall to guard before the XP loss normalization. XP loss to guards being higher? Our raid was 12 hours or some nonsense. The list of deaths you gave us is pretty minute in that case. Nothing reasonable you could want can fix this.
The problem with the system is that it exists, but for totally different reasons than you insist. This is not proof for or against the system. Nobody involved in this entire schpiel would have denied the opportunity under old death or old XP, sorry. And the loss of one body, when Kryss and Menoch were duoing a fair share of this? Nope, your points hold far less water.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
If the old death was laughable, why did we see a tremendous increase in Imperian conflict? Why do we have people more actively getting involved? Why do we have higher annoyance, complains and zergs about this? It is because it did something that the old system didn't. It's not that hard to see.
The old system was a barrier. You say you don't care about experience, but you do and I don't want to make it personal so I won't go in how you do. Think about it yourself.
Please name a metric of experience points I care about. I cannot lose Aspect in either system. PK and Bashing and Quest levels were and are still totally irrelevant. I have told you this for many, many months.
We have more people involved because we are doing a better job at encouraging a larger team environment. The only part of death changes that plays in to this mechanically is less tedium escaping Dis.
There was no zerging, Ziat. A huge player error occurred and we tool advantage of it over a huge period of time where Kinsarmar had options that they did not exercise.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Also, this door swings both ways - we have an advantage according to you, but AM isn't the only group affected by this change. Your defenders have an equal level of advantage and motivation now that all penalty is gone.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
I can't help but ask what the old death system has over the new one when you had nobody online to stop us anyways? Or when you couldn't stop them from returning to the city when you did have people on? New death is something you cry about when the speed at which your enemy returns in the issue. Our return speed was irrelevant in this.
The old death system, what, a slightly steeper XP penalty? XP is laughable. It doesn't matter. You can back those losses with an hour of bashing.
When I woke, that's exactly what I did and routed AM out of the city. I have a life and family outside of Imperian; however, so I can't stick around and deal with unceasing nonsense. The raids (and your participation) only came after I and others had to rest.
This is log from that period of time:
2013/12/06 03:44:42 - Cassius has been slain by Rynn.
2013/12/06 03:44:51 - Sadey has been slain by Kryss.
2013/12/06 03:44:53 - Rynn has been slain by Verexa.
2013/12/06 03:45:19 - Shou has been slain by Jarrhn.
2013/12/06 03:46:02 - Kryss has been slain by Jarrhn.
2013/12/06 03:47:05 - Menoch has been slain by Cassius.
2013/12/06 03:47:24 - Rynn has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 03:51:24 - Seraphyne has been slain by Shou.
2013/12/06 03:51:43 - Kryss has been slain by Sadey.
2013/12/06 03:52:15 - Menoch has been slain by Verexa.
2013/12/06 03:52:22 - Shou has been slain by Seraphyne.
2013/12/06 03:54:00 - Rynn has been slain by Verexa.
2013/12/06 03:56:48 - Rynn has been slain by Rynn.
2013/12/06 03:59:22 - Shou has been slain by an elite Warrior of Kinsarmar.
2013/12/06 04:01:27 - Rynn has been slain by Verexa.
2013/12/06 04:01:45 - Shou has been slain by Seraphyne.
2013/12/06 04:02:04 - Menoch has been slain by Verexa.
2013/12/06 04:02:08 - Kryss has been slain by Seraphyne.
2013/12/06 04:06:11 - Rynn has been slain by Verexa.
2013/12/06 04:06:26 - Cassius has been slain by Menoch.
2013/12/06 04:06:35 - Shou has been slain by Jarrhn.
2013/12/06 04:06:59 - Kryss has been slain by Seraphyne.
2013/12/06 04:06:59 - Menoch has been slain by Iroth.
2013/12/06 04:07:09 - Rynn has been slain by misadventure.
2013/12/06 04:09:58 - Twinga has been slain by Menoch.
2013/12/06 04:10:03 - Rynn has been slain by Iroth.
2013/12/06 04:10:23 - Kryss has been slain by Rosalie.
2013/12/06 04:10:59 - Shou has been slain by Seraphyne.
2013/12/06 04:11:40 - Menoch has been slain by Seraphyne.
And the raiding didn't resume until 2 hours later.
Raiding a city and killing all their guards, monolith and siege is zerging in itself. Posting a public post to brag about it is worse. There is no argument there and I hope you do not continue to carry it out because what AM did was ugly. Kinsarmar does not have combatants and is weak in general after a few of their people left. You took advantage of their weakness.
In regards to my original topic, I can guarantee you that you would have had far less effort if the old death system was back. It is so clear. There is so much unnecessary trying and killing just because death doesn't mean anything. Take Brishi. He raids, repeatedly and no matter how many times we kill him, he'll be at our doorstep trying to lure someone. Why is he doing this? If he was losing 2% PK plus a hefty amount of overall on all this, he would have gone home at possibly the fifth death. It is all linked to raiding. People are motivated to PK because it literally has no consequences.
I haven't played a lot of games but I have been playing league of legends and since you do as well, you know even their death has a consequence. You can't make stupid moves and go overconfident and charge in a team. If you are stupid and push a lane deep knowing that the enemy team will come and kill you, you are risking a loss because it turns into a 5v4 and they'll take that advantage to destroy the rest of the team and push for the nexus.
It is not the same with Imperian. Brishi yells "TROLLLLLLL" and rushes into guards? here is the next thing that happens "rt brb."
I'm just asking for death consequences, especially when it comes to raiding. With shardfalls already initiating a lot of conflict, we don't need a conflict where your city is annihilated and you are force to rework on all of this. Not to mention the fear and some people not even logging in. It's not a healthy environment and it doesn't support the game in anyway except make happy a few trolls that hop all the time whenever they see a stronger side
When I woke, that's exactly what I did and routed AM out of the city. I have a life and family outside of Imperian; however, so I can't stick around and deal with unceasing nonsense. The raids (and your participation) only came after I and others had to rest.
We have a life and family too, which is why we called it a day and went home after kicking the Kinsarmarians out of their own city for almost eight hours.
You didn't really rout anybody. You killed an AFK Shou and Djen, as far as I can tell. The rest of us went to bed once we were done mopping up. Please don't resort to hyperbole if you've ran out of points to make.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Raiding a city and killing all their guards, monolith and siege is zerging in itself. Posting a public post to brag about it is worse. There is no argument there and I hope you do not continue to carry it out because what AM did was ugly. Kinsarmar does not have combatants and is weak in general after a few of their people left. You took advantage of their weakness.
1. Yes. This is generally how conflict and raiding works. Thank you for stating the obvious.
In regards to my original topic, I can guarantee you that you would have had far less effort if the old death system was back. It is so clear. There is so much unnecessary trying and killing just because death doesn't mean anything. Take Brishi. He raids, repeatedly and no matter how many times we kill him, he'll be at our doorstep trying to lure someone. Why is he doing this? If he was losing 2% PK plus a hefty amount of overall on all this, he would have gone home at possibly the fifth death. It is all linked to raiding. People are motivated to PK because it literally has no consequences.
2. People don't PK if it has unreasonable consequences, and Imperian's primary draw is the PK. Why play a PK-centric game if everyone's afraid to PK?
I haven't played a lot of games but I have been playing league of legends and since you do as well, you know even their death has a consequence. You can't make stupid moves and go overconfident and charge in a team. If you are stupid and push a lane deep knowing that the enemy team will come and kill you, you are risking a loss because it turns into a 5v4 and they'll take that advantage to destroy the rest of the team and push for the nexus.
3. At this point, you're just comparing apples and potatoes. The tactics involved in a LoL battle and a city raid in Imperian are entirely different.
It is not the same with Imperian. Brishi yells "TROLLLLLLL" and rushes into guards? here is the next thing that happens "rt brb."
I'm just asking for death consequences, especially when it comes to raiding. With shardfalls already initiating a lot of conflict, we don't need a conflict where your city is annihilated and you are force to rework on all of this. Not to mention the fear and some people not even logging in. It's not a healthy environment and it doesn't support the game in anyway except make happy a few trolls that hop all the time whenever they see a stronger side
Comments
That's awesome. Here's a few more things that could use looking at while you're at it:
There's two things I'd like to see change with regard to the death penalty.
The first is that I'd like to see an offensive penalty alongside the defensive penalty, most likely in the form of increased balance/eq times. Right now, I can charge back in with 3 stacks of the penalty and I'm still at 100% offensive potential. Since every hit I take is a hit that didn't hit somebody else, it's really effective for the cannon fodder to do this. If I stop targeting Septus to swat Brishi for the 3rd time in the same fight, I've just given up a huge chunk of momentum. If Brishi were qjabbing 45% slower for charging in on his third death, he'd be massively less effective. He'd still be a net gain, but a reduced one, and he'd have to give thought to letting his penalty to drop to restore his effectiveness.
The second is that I think that your penalty levels should wear off consecutively, rather than concurrently. Right now, you clear all your penalty stacks at once. This means that there's no real penalty for repeatedly zerging back into combat. If I zerg back in three times before my team is finally defeated and out of the fight, my L3 penalty will wear off at the same time as their L1 penalty, which really encourages me to zerg back in immediately and frequently. If the penalty levels wore off consecutively, charging back into battle would be a thing you did to swing close fights and graveyard zerging would no longer be 100% optimal.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Also!
It gets really frustrating when you're only ever losing PK exp because you put all your enemies on 0% PK exp status and then everything past that point is pure loss.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
We did not force any guards to move in any way but the traditional way of giving them a reason to move - which means that the reason we were capable of this falls solely in the realm of player error. Kinsarmar left a weak spot open and a very small group was able to bust it open from there.
In short, we would have been able to do this without new death, and at honestly not much slower of a pace. Once your city is navigable due to no siege, you run the risk of guards being killed at a much leisurely pace. They made their siege in easy to approach areas, and targetted those areas in minimal fashions. This made it survivable.
In short, new death is not to blame for this. I know you don't want to hear that, but we did not zerg the guards over and over until they died. Elite status guards make that impossible. We were capable of this due to an incredibly large error on Kinsarmar's part. In the old death, the only difference would have been the pace, and not really more than an extra 30m. I died a total of twice during my part, and it was to me walking on the main siege line before we dismantled that portion.
EDIT: @Cassius - we didn't have a monk when I joined. There were still 8 Kinsarmarians and a couple that could've moved guards. We killed most of the guards well after something could've been done about your monk issues.
Brishi came in after I did. Monks are incapable of using telepathy on mobiles, and they are incapable of commanding people the necessary level of inputs to dismantle a guard clot without SOMEBODY noticing. Once again, it comes down to player error: you guys messed up big time.
You gave security aide to a chronic AFKer or somebody that can't see past their own nose? Not our fault. Not new death's fault.
The old death system, what, a slightly steeper XP penalty? XP is laughable. It doesn't matter. You can back those losses with an hour of bashing.
The problem with the system is that it exists, but for totally different reasons than you insist. This is not proof for or against the system. Nobody involved in this entire schpiel would have denied the opportunity under old death or old XP, sorry. And the loss of one body, when Kryss and Menoch were duoing a fair share of this? Nope, your points hold far less water.
We have more people involved because we are doing a better job at encouraging a larger team environment. The only part of death changes that plays in to this mechanically is less tedium escaping Dis.
There was no zerging, Ziat. A huge player error occurred and we tool advantage of it over a huge period of time where Kinsarmar had options that they did not exercise.