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Tokens

AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 2013 in General Discussion
1. We are going to remove tokens from the memberships on January 1st, 2014. We had intended for token items to be scarcer and with the massive amounts of tokens in the game that is not possible. We also feel that the membership is still a HUGE value without the tokens (daily lessons, monthly credits, permanent credit bonus, xp bonus, and the phylactery).  However, if you do not agree, you will still be able to get your tokens for the next couple of months and deactivate before the end of the year.

So, I don't want to be a jerk about this. That's your fault for stacking token generation. Iron Elite, phylacteries, stockings, giftbags, monthly promos. Tokens are awesome and I don't really want to be punished for your oopsie. If you want to break into the supply, maybe you should just sell all of token wares all the time. Once people figure out how awesome atlas pages are, you'll start gobbling up tokens like a bunch of fat kids. Next step, only customize through token wares. Raise the price. If you're replacing it with some other system, enlighten us so we don't  freak out. Aleutia's broken right now and I blame you.

2. Soulstones purchased via tokens will not be able to be traded in for credits starting November 1st. We have been careful not to set gold value on credits in the game so that the value of credits can vary based on demand.  We feel as though setting a credit value on tokens (via soulstone tradeins) is not good.

Duh. This directly relates to problem one. There was nothing wrong with this. Though, you're never going avoid this. As long as it's able to be traded it's going to have some sort of credit cost. You can either make it traded or not. That's up to you.

We've also added some consumables to the token wares over the past couple of months so that your tokens can still have significant value to you, just not at a direct conversion to credits. We plan on improving existing items more and adding new ones to the program.

This is awesome. This should be used to resolve point 1. If you stop using tokens as a default stocking stuffer for "Whelp, you didn't get a free artifact" tokens have more value.


At the end of the day, I really don't get why you're removing tokens from the elite package. If you want to reduce the supply, reduce it to one. If you want to reduce the availability of stupid crap, remove the stupid crap from the token wares stock pile or make the cost something stupidly exorbitant. Hell, add a 'shop tax' of 1 token a year to keep your crappy market stall running.

Market stall: 50-100 tokens House: 100-200

Edit: Additions.

By reducing the supply, or even hinting at it, you're going to be inflating the 'value' of tokens. I know the end of days is coming, so if I'm smart (which some of us are) we're going to invest in those bad boys now and sit on a Smaug horde that we can save on expenditure later for the cool toys or we're going to sell them to the peasants at a ridiculous markup. Here, your change 1 is undoing your change 2 which is going to ruin your change 3.

How are you going to offer tokens? Not gonna lie, ponying up $300 dollars for 3 tokens is a pretty craptacular deal. How is Joe-the-newbie supposed to get his paws on tokens? The black market is going to rape him six ways from Tuesday and he can't buy them outside of promos. What is Joe to do for tasty token goodness? Either way he's getting extorted. Actually, this change really dings newbies. Aleutia, Selthis, Khizan, Ahkan, Lionas all already have the sweet tasty token items that they need. The only people who get boned from here on out are newbies and midbies. Think of the newbies. 
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Comments

  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2013
    The supply of tokens is already what it is. Don't change it. The reason why there are so many is because you shoved them down our throats for monthly promotions. Stop doing that and bring back some different ones.

    Also make the token consumables worth my time. Portal coins are boring. Cairns are boring. I don't like consumable items attached to the credit or token market, to be frank. I would rather cairns be permanent, and coins simply be like purchasable 'attunements' to let you access a scenario or portal coin area at your leisure.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 197 ✭✭✭
    Eh, I am fairly unimpressed with the token items, arti pipes excluded. Argh Pee wise, being able to learn some of the language stuff is neat... Pet items are a convenience thing... but... really... I'm giving this a, eh, big deal? Though, I do wish we'd get some return in value, but, I suppose that the powers that be have decided otherwise.
  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm composing my thoughts, expect a bit of wordvomit at some point.
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    Selthis said:
    I'm composing my thoughts, expect a bit of wordvomit at some point.
    I'll be waiting!
  • ArakisArakis Member Posts: 163 ✭✭✭
    "We had intended for token items to be scarcer and with the massive amounts of tokens in the game that is not possible."--- In the SAME MONTH that you're having a token promotion.
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    Also please keep in mind (and I did not say this in the announce post):

    1. We will have other ways to get tokens outside of buying credits. Like participating in certain events, monthly contests, etc.
    2. Right now, with the tokens, the memberships a just too good of a deal. Right now someone can get over 200 credits a month 25 dollars. Not to mention all the lessons.
    3. We will probably move token items around a little bit (some over to credit items) and make new token only items that make sense.
    4. We may reprice some of the token items down the road at the "token economy" recovers from this "crushing blow of doom"!
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    Arakis said:
    "We had intended for token items to be scarcer and with the massive amounts of tokens in the game that is not possible."--- In the SAME MONTH that you're having a token promotion.
    That is actually something we do not have a ton of control over. There will be more in the future too. The sales have to be determined across all the IRE games and ultimately I would not really like to have too many token sales. I like people having to earn, find, and trade for tokens. If there are items that people think should be on the credit side no matter what, I am open to suggestions there.
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll be cancelling my elite.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 197 ✭✭✭
    Jeremy said:
     If there are items that people think should be on the credit side no matter what, I am open to suggestions there.
    I think this depends on what sort of items you are wanting on the token side... there are certain actually USEFUL items... arti pipes... some of the pet items... the vial of perpetuity is probably up there, but it's price is pretty steep, etc... and then there are more novelty, collector things that, while fun, impact my play in very few practical ways... are you wanting token items to follow a certain genre?
  • AleutiaAleutia Member, Historian Posts: 363 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jeremy said:
    Also please keep in mind (and I did not say this in the announce post):

    1. We will have other ways to get tokens outside of buying credits. Like participating in certain events, monthly contests, etc.

    I can't think of an especially nice way to put this, but Admin's track record for holding contests monthly when they say they will has been utterly terrible. Bardic/Arts lasted all of one month. The rewards for Champions as far as I know still don't work. I don't have a lot of faith that something can be implemented to consistently give people a chance at tokens with the current precedent.
                                                   image
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    Well, monthly no. But instead of doing things where players get 10 credits on mothers day, or when we run a major even where all the participants get 25 credits, we would give tokens instead (or in addition). You are right though, monthly contests will not happen. My mistake there.
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 197 ✭✭✭
    Also, because I missed it because I already had posted and didn't reread: Ahkan's edits are extremely insightful and deserve looking into and thought.
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Off topic but make it so you can change the actions on a pet training token at any time (and increase the price if that's necessary).
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see a few problems with this, but the biggest problem I have right now is that Selthis said everything I was going to say, and he did it way better than I was going to say it


    :(

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Someone brought up shelves in the Caanae market stall.  I forgot about that aspect of shopkeeping. Refund the gold to the shop owner for the cost of the shelves.
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    I am bringing my wife the the airport, so I am not ignoring this, but I will answer tomorrow sometime while I mull it over.
  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry, going to need a long,well-reasoned  5 paragraph essay in response typed up on your phone while you're sitting  in the airport.

    (That's fine, I just mostly wanted to throw in input)
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A big part of my problem with the pay-promotions is that while I'm not in the 0.1%, I'm pretty close to the 1%. Khizan's omni-trans. He's kitted out with all the important artifacts. Defensive, offensive, utility, check. Auction-only shifting weapon, check. I'm pretty much set.

    I am at the point where I am legitimately having trouble deciding what I will get him next, but I keep my Elite for the same reason Selthis does, basically. The thing is, Khizan is at the point where I can't justify buying the amount of credits it would take to get cool amounts of your promotion things, and so I never get them.


    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • LalitanaLalitana Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    I have to say I would be incredibly, ragingly angry if I logged in and the market stall I purchased and enjoy having/using was deleted just because they suddenly don't cost enough.

    I don't have a really strong opinion about the token downgrade but will absolutely cancel my membership if the administration starts randomly deleting my artifacts. Breaking the 100% trade-in precedent for tomes was bad enough, thanks.
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    :<
    <pause>
    -unsubscribe-
    -play GW2-
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • VerexaVerexa Member Posts: 132 ✭✭✭
    I have to add my voice to the fray here. I am equally disappointed in the upcoming changes mostly because there was no mention of adjusting the price of the Iron Elite membership to reflect them. Though I agree that the membership is a fantastic value for your money, I feel like removing Tokens, one of best perks of the membership in my opinion, without lowering the price at least a bit is punishing your players for taking advantage of how the Token system was managed as Ahkan and Selthis have pointed out. In short, it feels like we are losing something and there is no compensation for said loss.

    That being said, I think there are a number of excellent ideas in this discussion. The administration should take the time to consider them before moving forward.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2013
    At worst, reduce it to 1 token per month or like, 1 token every other month, but deleting tokens and reposessing stalls is just absolutely over the top and will create quite a bit of user unhappiness and lost money.


    EDIT: Also, if you give me instanced solo-boss raids, I'm going to have to cut my knife addictions to buy credits to buy tokens from people to do it.

    Also, for those of us who are into sects, it'd be cool if these instanced things had corpses of an extremely high sacrifice value, too. I'd love to spend a token and use a bunch of sect rituals to do well against these tougher areas, then still be able to replenish belief/faith... So, y'know, I can just do it all over again when my favours run out.
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭

    With what little money I get during the month, and for how long I've played Imperian (since I was 16), the monthly rate is pretty much all I can afford at this point. Very rarely do I get an extra 20 or so dollars for that 50 credit package or less.

    This month, even with how low I've been getting, I felt compelled to give into Elite and give the coders and Jeremy and everyone something to show that I do appreciate all their hard work and am willing to give my hard earned money to support what I love.

    I'm not sure how this will roll out, but all I can hope for is the best.

    @Selthis - You rock.

    image
  • AzefelAzefel Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2013
    image

    To me, it was never "huge value", it was just the least terrible value ranging between 11.7c to 15.2c per credit ($25 for 164 → 214 cr), and this is not including the phylactery. This is somewhat acceptable, though definitely still on the more expensive side, IMO for game "subscriptions." The biggest cr package costs almost twice as much per cr (29c). 

    I have not spent anywhere near as much on every other MMO I have ever played, combined, than I have on Imperian alone. And that's even with like 80%+ of the things I have being funded by other people because they're lazy and want my scripts. Admittedly only Guild Wars 2 comes somewhat close to letting me use mango-themed items.

    Just sell credits (and tokens?) on the website at current elite $/cr conversion and everyone wins.

    if anything I suppose this was a good way to convince myself to save another $25 a month :/
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 197 ✭✭✭
    Just because I cannot stress this enough from the "Agree" button... Everything Selthis said is gold.
  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    Currently, an average novice(bashing/pking to 85ish) can hit tri-trans in one class with transed Survival and Antidotes in about 7 months of just elite. That's when they first get a real chance to get into PK(although transed Survival and Antidotes are slightly less vital now). Without tokens on elite, it would take another 2 months(9 months total) to hit that point. Just something to keep in mind.
    image
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2013
    I am fine with everything Ahkan and Selthis suggest besides the removal of shop stalls. People who own them should not be punished just because you guys made a poor choice about token distribution. However, I figured I'd raise a pretty valid concern here:

    This devalues the Iron Elite, something that already wasn't all that attractive to me as a player. It's twice as expensive as a Final Fantasy 14  subscription (11.99/mo), and close to twice as much as a World of Warcraft subscription (14.99/mo) - both of which have much more reliable balance updates (current Twintania bugs notwithstanding :( ), are ran by larger companies who are much better organized (no offense meant to you guys), etc. They also have much more reliable content and story progression, have a larger and more active community, and much more less restrictive/much more spontaneous PK conflict (in World of Warcraft's case, if I roll on a PK server, I can go ganking chumps, or I can arena, or I can go to battlegrounds, or..).. where as in Imperian, I am pretty much restricted to breaking in to a city and hoping the other side plays along instead of vortexing me in to guards or siege, or waiting on a shardfall or some idiot Aspect to let go of their monolith. Imperian's actual PK is far more interesting (cue Menoch's Gladiator Season Reminiscence Skit), but the game has such a small amount of manpower that they take a long time moving on to the next class remake or deliberating on a new conflict system. Not to mention that the game is slowly phasing out the kind of combat I find fun really by no fault of its own - the game had to evolve to be more inclusive or else it was going to die).

    Now, I'm not making a case against Imperian itself.. but Iron Elite costs 24.99 a month for what, really? I don't need the credits or the lessons. I don't need the EXP bonus since I'm not a Pokemon Master about Aspect Perks. I have every defensive artifact I truly want and I do not foresee myself needing any new offensive artifacts in the near future (a level 3 dartsheath is all I can really fathom right now). Subscribing to Iron Elite, without the tokens, just seems like an even bigger misplay to me than it already is. The tokens can be used to buy something cool down the road that you guys think up but don't put a credit pricetag on (which strikes me as somwhat arbitrary in the first place, to be honest) - if you take away those 2 tokens a month, why am I paying you twice the price of an MMO subscription when none of the other benefits matter to me right now?
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
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