Yet Another Obelisk Thread

Khizan

I'm starting this thread because Magick lost an Obelisk fight in record time tonight.

Specifically, I am starting it because I was ABSOLUTELY THRILLED to lose it in record time, because obelisk fights are, by far, the most irritating terrible no good awful unfun miserable horrible atrocious tedious badly designed things in this entire game. They're bad, in other words. They're so bad that they  corrupt the in-game chat channels, because when Kryss says "we have enough, I think we can take an Obelisk", what I actually here is "Hey everybody I'm going to steal your evening! The best case scenario here is that you spend an hour here doing nothing, and the worst case scenario is that you're tied up here for a couple of hours or more!"

I am perfectly willing to just give up all the Obelisks to AM or demonic or whatever, because I never want to do another of these tedious wait-fests again. I knew tonight was going to be a contested outpost, and I flat out told my team that I was just going to follow, defend, and AFK, because these things are so stupidly miserable to participate in. I don't care about shard  research at all at this point, if it means I have to put myself through those boring waitfests. 

There is no way to fix this system as it is. There is no band-aid that can be applied. The entire generator/chargebomb/outpost thing is screwed for one major reason: players choose when to attack. This means you need a long wait time to help avoid the offhours ninja-attack, and it means that you need the off-hours ninja attack because you're using limited resources to make the attack. This is never going to be a fun mechanic, because these things are inherently anti-fun.

What you need to do is make Obelisks into Shardfalls MkII. A captured Obelisk will revert to neutral ownership at a random time, no sooner than 2 days after it is captured, but no later than 5. When it reverts to neutral, the shield generator-thing on the outpost explodes, spraying pieces everywhere. The explosion is visible across the entire world(indoors and outdoors) and it destabilizes the island for 5-10 minutes , which throws everybody off of the island and keeps people from entering it, so that the various sides have time to form up. When the island stabilizes again, everybody can powercall in to the island to collect generator pieces to rebuild the generator for their faction.

The generator pieces will be black shards, and they will be harvested just like normal shards, with a few differences. They drop when the holder is killed, and they drop if the holder leaves the island. You claim them for your generator by taking them to a capture node or power node, to prevent just camping the Obelisk. Once all the pieces have been picked up and claimed, the side that has the most shards claims the Obelisk.

The goal here is to basically replicate shardfalls, because shardfalls are awesome. They can't be off-hours gamed(intentionally). They have enforced mobility, to prevent teams from just forting up. 

SOMETHING has to change with Obelisks, because the system we have now is miserable. Frankly, letting Kryss and Iluv white-knight it out to determine whose side gets the Obelisk would be preferable, because at least then I wouldn't pretend to be AFK or lie about being at work everytime somebody mentions the word.

Garryn

This is indeed something that I am looking at, and I've been drafting some changes for a while now. I'm not going to put coding effort into this until the classleads are done, but since the topic has been brought up, I figured I may as well post my current draft for discussion.

Here goes:

- Each structure (obelisk / outpost) has an invulnerability timer, initially at 350, going down by 3 every hour

- When the timer runs out, the structure becomes open to chargebomb attacks for 4 hours; if no attack occurs, the protective shield recharges and starts again (at 350)

- Outside of this 4 hour interval, no attacks are possible

- At each hourly tick, the reduction is altered by the number of outposts protecting the obelisk - no outpost = 3, 1 outpost = 2, 2 outposts = 1, 3 outposts = no reduction

- Effectively this means that unprotected obelisks/outposts can be attacked roughly every 5 days, which is increased to 7 if there's one outpost, 14 if there are two, and infinite if there are three outposts protecting the structure

- All those convoluted protection intervals, cooldowns, etc, will be abolished - all that matters is what protects what at the hourly ticks

- Cities will be able to spend some obelisk energy to reinforce the shield somewhat, extending the timer by a few hours (details tbd)  - this won't be possible if the timer is already very low (less than 12 hours or so remaining)

- There will be a way (not sure what yet exactly) to see which structure will be open to attack when

- The intent with the above is to shift the system away from the 'only attack if having a clear advantage' approach, as there will be a clear time window during which the defenders can anticipate attacks, and they will be able to shift it around as needed by rotating outpost protections and/or using the extension ability

- On the actual capture process, I plan to change the process so that instead of the current control-the-majority system, each faction and each node has its own counter that increases depending on who controls the node, and the node is 'sealed' as soon as one faction gains enough influence over it (numbers tbd). The timer will never decrease. The faction that ends up sealing more nodes wins.

- Node controlling would otherwise stay as-is -- although I'm fine with changing it into a proposed CTF-style system too, where you'd need to deliver periodically spawning items to the nodes to increase the counter, if that's what you guys prefer.

- I'm also considering redoing the chargebomb powers (HELP CHARGEBOMB POWERS), as the current ones are largely unused, and many people seem to not know about them at all. So what I am thinking about is changing these into effects that the obelisk owners can use to somehow (details tbd) offset the attackers' advantage, at the cost of losing some progress on a node


Okay, there you have it - obviously this is merely a draft and anything can change, but it should be good enough as a basis for discussions.

Ahkan

- Outside of this 4 hour interval, no attacks are possible

What would determine when the 350 counter restarts?  If the same 4hr window hits every day, it defeats the random. The way this is laid out, you're just going to favor basic math and the skype signal. "Everyone log on to Imperian at 7:28p, Moradeims shield is going to be down. Bring your poopsocks!" (You think this is a joke? It's not)

Can we look at energy usage? Back in the day, it was said that you could barely hold 4 obelisks that were shielded and still attack. Well, AM rolled iup and proved that to be a myth and busted it. The energy management system was supposed to be 'strategic' and force people to choose offense or defense. Instead, the system allows you to choose "both." Personally, I'd remove outposts entirely and force you to spend generator energy to power shield. Why? This forces you to bash and leave your city to play defense while you have the bounty on you from taking my obelisk.

Dicene

(Antioch): Bounty1 says, "Bashing for generator, who has a veil I can borrow?"

Applicable to all circles, really.

Sarrius

Veils are their own separate problem, but whining from a select few of an already tiny population (read: one or two people out of the seven or eight that own veils) combined with their tremendous price tag ensures that problem will never get fixed.

I would prefer we just do away with the obelisk system altogether as it stands, but the changes mentioned might redeem it even a little.

Ahkan

Dicene said:

(Antioch): Bounty1 says, "Bashing for generator, who has a veil I can borrow?"

Applicable to all circles, really.

Tsk, tsk. This is why you'll be doomed to henchman status. Check bashing areas. Autowalk through entire area. Not there. Move on to next. Additional problem, most veil wearers are so addicted to their no-pkness it's unlikely they'll hand that away and get pk'd themselves. Not to mention, ongoing shielding means ongoing drains which means ongoing bashing. It'd be like asking for a veil to go shard falling. You just wouldn't do it 100% of the time. Plus, tbh, I can clear 2-3 areas before someone tries to gank me, which is between 60-100% generator energy. Gotta stay on your toes, etc.

The bad qualities of obelisk fights could always be ignored pre-shards because that sort of badness existed in its own opt-in arena of poopsocking. People got to fight it out over the game breaking benefit of Aryana, but you could get by without them. Then came the great mistake of linking the incredibly awesome random pk fun of shardfalls and linking it to the debilitating boredom that is obelisks. There's a lot of game-breaking fun in shard research that if you're missing, life can suck. Congratulations. You're obligated to participate in obelisks to pick up 'viable' (read: mandatory) abilities to succeed in the hostile bloodbath that is Imperian. 

Ambrose

I'm not sure that there is a clear fix for this, but if there is a definite window to attack in, this keeps similar problems to what already exist and still definitely favors the side with numbers? Maybe even exacerbates the problem since it deletes the ability to ninja obelisks. When I first started playing, AM had all the obelisks (which was really nice to accidentally walk into the winning team, but long term isn't a good thing, even for the winners) and only recently have our numbers started dropping enough to slowly lose them (side note, we still control the majority). Now imagine if we still had god-mode on and there was only a four hour window which we could lose our obelisks in... Ahkan nailed this problem here, all it takes is a matter of Skype-ing in Septus, Sarrius, Shou, Airamaya, Kodo, Kliko, etc. and scrubs for four hours, and behold, we are good for another week or so.

The problem you don't want to end up is where the obelisks never fluctuate circles. This is stagnant and overall bad. I've actually enjoyed playing a lot more over the past week or so because numbers are starting to even out a little bit which means that I'm not automatically on the winning team (when I first started playing three months or so ago) or getting steamrolled (most of the past month or two until the past week). The obelisk mechanic I THINK should function similarly in that the defender isn't able to perpetually hold the obelisk without having to get some PK action going... but by the same right isn't able to hold on to them long enough to enjoy it.

Kryss

Obelisks are boring and horrid. The only reason I even bother to try and attack them is for shard research but it's certainly not fun at all. If I want to get some PK action, it's much more enjoyable to just pick a fight with AM and start up yet another back and forth melee, one that's opt in and out at anytime.

Khizan

A few points/questions I have about that system:

1. You say the window of attack will be open for four hours. Does this mean that if I know the window opens at  7:30, I can rush it at 7:31 and have the obelisk by 7:40?
2. Conversely, do the points remain open for capture until the end of the window, making the first 3 hours and change meaningless?
   
3. Knowing when an Obelisk opens up to fight means that it will end up being a schedule thing. "Aryana's coming up at 4:30! Everybody be here!". This is frustrating and stupid, because if you don't plan your day around that window, you'll never win obelisks against a team that does. This is less gameable than firing up the batsignal, but frustrating to know that you will lose a fight simply because you didn't schedule your day around making an appearance for it. This kind of thing isn't very fun in the long run, as the need to keep scheduling around these fights grinds on you very quickly.

I'd like to suggest randomizing it more. IMO, the ideal setup is one where the Obelisk turns over during a fairly broad window of time. It makes it harder to defend, but this is not a bad thing; higher rates of turnover are better for the game, imo. It makes it easier to complete researches, helps ensure that every side gets a chance to have it on occasion, and it prevents stupid scheduling necessities.
 

Ahkan

So, new idea.

Can we run a poll that's like, "Which would you rather do?"
-Swim through acid with sharks

-Obelisk fight

There's so much that's terrible about obelisk fighting.

-Powercalling. 

This is bad because it limits who can get involved. It's a war. Imperian sacrifices everything (and I mean everything) to be the lolpvp game. Why would you artificially bottleneck your 'war' (loose term) system?

-Strategy

The whole powercalling/island concept doesn't fit Imperian at all. Ranged combat is pretty terrible now. Shard research removed smart fortification. The obelisk fights boil down to who has more people and/or who is most lame. No one likes any of that. Worse,the chargebomb concepts just erode the fundamentals of Imperian combat, so I'm glad no one ever used them. I can't imagine some of those effects being on.

-Aryana obelisk
Shocker, this obelisk is still stupid. It bypasses the powercall. If used properly this is a doom weapon. Luckily, AM has it so it's not utilized well at all. The awesome benefit to this is watching AM lemming to their deaths x 18

-Takes too long

You're guaranteed to be committed to 1hr for an obelisk fight. Like alterac valley, if there's any sign of coherent defense you're like at anywhere between 1hr and 8hrs.

-The "Fixes"

These bad boys don't address the problem. To be honest, they'll just exacerbate the problem. Instead of a 24hr poopsock window, I have a 4 hour window. I know I'm a casual player, but someone more dedicated, like a zerg, could easily plan a skype call for a 4hr window. 

14 day attack immunity  isn't a 'defense' that's a mofoing offense.  Defenders sacrifice nothing to gain immunity. With the way 'new' system works, I can put Aryana on lockdown for 14 days and zerg the crap out of the other obelisks, forcing you to waste energy for 13-14 days. Oh look, you missed your four hour window. "Sucks2beyou, trololol." 14 more days!

Honestly, the obelisk mechanic right now seems to be globally despised. You want to know what I miss? Landmarks. God damnit, that was amazing. Basically, there was 'landmark' season and these landmarks would open up and would have mini-games to play to take them over. Some of them were gather quests. Some of them were capture the flag. Some of them were downright slobberknocker pk bots. These then influenced how much devotion/necromancy was generated at dawn/midnight. Lower the 'usefulness' factor of obelisks, make the 'landmark season' completely random, and damn...let the fireworks begin. DO NOT link the shard research system into super powering or making land mark season easier. Only use shards as a resource.

P.S. You should put an NPC faction in that can randomly take obelisks/landmarks to keep players on their toes, because players will behave predictably. There needs to be an 'x' factor that can stir things up outside of me out laming Khizan at 4:30a on a Sunday.

Apoloc

It is less of a wait fest now, especially versus AM who can just fly back in the room with you really quickly.  Till they die enough that they aren't worth exp or kill counts.  I suppose that just compounds the problem.

Ambrose

The more I think about this, the more I think about how... misplaced... the obelisk powers themselves are and I think this is something throwing the rest of the system out of whack. 

- There isn't an opt in-opt out option... at least, not really. Especially when it comes to something as powerful as the Aryana obelisk. 

- Sukhder and Moradeim are kind of fun powers when I'm bored, but if you want to make cities more or less "safe zones" then they don't belong as that is pretty much their entire point. 

(This is getting slightly off topic, but...)To be honest, I enjoy raiding/defending... but I understand that not every player is like me and 

to that kind of player, I get that raiding is not fun. All that to say, make a decision here and pass the final word on cities, making 

them near-unraidable and repurpose these obelisks or make these options shard research or something that is a little more 

accessible. As it stands, the bearer of those obelisks basically just get ez-mode raiding on someone that doesn't have the 

option to retaliate. 

- Nature and True-sight seem more appropriate - handy powers, but not really 'game changers.'

Now, I'm all for epic battles that can go on for awhile, but I shouldn't stand to gain/lose something as ridiculous as the Aryana obelisk. And if life beckons, I shouldn't have to panic about needing to bail. Obelisks should be small, fun perks that don't matter a ton if you gain/lose them. That way the entire game doesn't shift as the experienced players join the FotM circle and leave the non-combatants or come-hell-or-high-water-I'm-staying-in-my-circle players up the proverbial creek without a proverbial paddle. I think from here, you could almost even do a 5-7 day immunity (something not terribly long, but long enough to get a bit of benefit out of the obelisk) and then open it up for someone to raid. Make it cost the attacker something so that they can't attack more than once every RL day or two. And make the perks small enough that the attacker feels embarrassed to try to just ninja it (I realize this is probably too much to hope for). Or... you could do something semi-randomized after the 5-7 day immunity... say once every RL day open it up at a random point during the day to one circle to attack the holder of the obelisk (alternating circles each day).

Anyways, I don't know that I understand game mechanics enough yet to speak authoritatively on this, but it strikes me that the problem isn't so much the system (which is partly at fault), but the prize itself.

Sarrius

I suddenly miss landmarks too, despite their actual significance back in the day..

Ahkan

Landmarks fit better. Also in your redesign you can actually tie some of the story into your game mechanics, which is something Imperian has none of.

Stop calling them obelisks. Center the obelisks on a piece of a dead god or a piece of Avasyu. Control that part of a dead god for a benefit. Pk reason and the faint flicker of a cohesive story line.

Khizan

The problem with Landmarks tying into the game mechanics was that it turned them into a "succeed or suck" mechanism that penalized you if you weren't competitive in them, which is a thing you don't really want in a PvP system. "Your circle is on the low end of the cycle, so we're going to make it harder for you" is a terrible mechanic that's basically why Landmarks went away.

The problem with Obelisks is that the benefits look like this:

Aryana
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Moradeim
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Nature
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True Sight
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Sukhder

Efficiency is the odd-man-out here, because shard research aside, it's only useful if you're holding a lot of Obelisks already, and it gains you nothing otherwise. 

The problem with Obelisk powers is that Aryana is a horrifically overpowered piece of crap that makes it way easier to win fights, and the rest of the obelisks are all decent utility skills, with Moradeim's "hahah never use your house" being nerfworthy, but only for irritation factor, rather than than anything gamebreaking.

Ahkan

That's why I paired the landmark idea with a huge downgrade in the usefulness of the obelisks. Imo, they're all bad.

Aryana - Bypass death mechanic.

Moradeim - Bypass all mechanics

Sukhder - Bypass no portal mechanics. 

Truesight - Bypass the mechanics that bypass the seeking mechanics 

Nature - Bypass the harvesting mechanics

Efficiency - Bypass the obelisk mechanics meant to balance obelisk powers 

We should call it the bypass system. It's largely why it's bad.