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Cult and Sect Expansion

Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
edited December 2013 in New Ideas
IMPORTANT: This is a draft edition of the system and is very subject to change based on your feedback. Please give feedback. :)

We will be adding new features to sects/cults that revolve around shrines and sanctums. Shrines will be built outward from your temple and will house powerful relics that will give your cult or sect special powers. As your web of shrines grows, battles will begin over shrine placement and the relics they contain. We want this system to include people that like to PvP, PvE, or just RP as much as possible. This way people can help or contribute in ways they enjoy to play the game.

The purpose of the system is to:
  • Make sects/cults more interesting.
  • Provide fun new features (relic powers and sanctums)
  • Create a PvP mechanic (shrine wars)
  • Create a RP mechanic (negotiating shrine placements between enemies and allies)
  • Create a market for holy relics, comms, and other shrine items.
  • Add more value to bashing and questing (relics, shrine items, etc)

SHRINES
Remove any ideas from your minds about the ways shrines used to work here or on other games. We want to do something new, and I considered naming them something else, but I feel like the word shrine embodies them best. There are some similarities of course, but we want to make it as new as possible.
  • In general shrines will take a good amount of time to build up and tear down. We are shooting for something that will take 24 hours to do (if there is no resistance). This will allow people to fight back.
  • Cult and Sect members will be able to build shrines outward from their altar.
  • Cults will have a limit (not sure what) to the number of shrines they can build.
  • Shrines must be within 5 rooms of the altar or an existing shrine with 300 points or more (see shrine strength in BUILDING SHRINES below) 
  • Shrines that are cut off from the altar (not within 3 rooms of the altar or a shrine with at least 300 points) will slowly fall apart.
  • Shrines have special powers based on the relic they protect. (See RELICS below)
  • When a shrine is destroyed, the relic is ruined.
  • Shrines increase the number of rooms the org can have in their Sanctum. (See SANCTUMS below)

BUILDING SHRINES
Building shrines is expensive, however they should be fairly hard to kill off. We want killing off a shrine to be quite an accomplishment.
  • Shrines are created using the following items.
    • Relic: Each relic has a different power that will give the shrine a special power.
    • Belief: Building the shrine will have an initial belief cost.
    • Normal Comms: Initial basic comm cost (stone, wood, cloth). Working on this still.
    • Special Comms: Shrines require four special comm parts to 'power' in order to complete.
      • Blood  : Gained from PK
      • Spirit : Gained from PvE
      • Virtue : Gained from Questing
      • Fortune: Normal gold
  • Special Comms
    • Each part of the shrine can be strengthened from 1 to 100 points
      • A shrine must be at 200 total points for the relic to be effective.
      • A shrine must be at 300 points to be expanded from.
      • A shrine at 400 points (max) will require twice the faith to defile.
    • Blood, Spirit and Virtue shrine parts are earned instead of experience, at a configurable rate. For example, a player can turn off PK experience gain and will get 'blood comms' instead of PK XP. Alternatvely they can set it to 50% or anything like that. This is the same for all the XP types. Fortune will just take gold coins.
    • These new special comms can be traded and sold to other players.
  • Shrines cannot be build within the influence of another shrine that does not belong to it.
  • Basically the rooms your shrine influences will fall under the ownership of the sect/cult. Let the fight begin.

SANCTIFY AND DEFILE SHRINES
The basic idea is that shrines are NOT easy to kill off. Killing off a shrine will take a coordinated effort via PvP and PvE in most cases.
  • The battle for shrines will revolve around the faith that has been placed in the shrine.
  • When first built, the shrine will be at 50% faith (working on a good starting point)
  • Sanctifying and defiling has a faith cost.
  • Players use their faith to build or defile a shrine.
  • When a shrine hits 0% it is destroyed.
  • Shrines can only be defiled or sanctified once per hour. 
  • Shrines can be DEFILED once an hour. More often if it has been sanctified in that time.
  • Shrines can be SANCTIFIED once an hour. More often if is has been defiled in that time.
  • Sanctity or defile will reduce or increase its faith by 5%.
  • Both commands will take 30 seconds to complete. Being attacked (or attacking) will stop the action.

SHRINE UPKEEP
  • Each shrine require belief per game month to maintain. The more shrines your cult/sect has, the more belief it will take to maintain them. 
  • If your sect/cult does not have belief, your shrines will slowly lose faith.

HOLY RELICS
Relics are placed in shrines and give them all a special power. All relics have different powers.  Important: How relics are generated and their powers is going to evolve quite a bit.
  • Relics are obtained via a variety of methods.
    • Killing boss mobs
    • Completing quests
    • Rare drops from 'normal' mobs
    • Purchases from traveling salesmen (mobs)
    • More common relics may appear/reset in certain areas on occasion.
  • Relic rarity is based on their powers. Some of the relics will be very, very rare.
  • Relic powers can have multiple levels, strengthening the effect of that power. Rarity is a factor of power combination and level combination.
  • Some relics are created by combining other relics.
  • Relics can be traded and sold to other players.

SAMPLE RELIC POWERS
This is an initial list which will grow quite a bit before we release the system. Even as I am typing this, we are talking about a more complicated system that revolves around only being able to find weaker relics, and more powerful relics can only be found via combining various relics. Important: How relics are generated and their powers is going to evolve quite a bit.
  • Web wide
    • Reduced belief upkeep per shrine. Having a ton of this makes the drain go negative, and actually gains you belief/day.
    • Extra belief when sacrificing
    • Reduction in belief required to unlock rituals 
    • Reduce the cost to perform a certain ritual
    • Caravan Speed
    • Larger Sanctum
  • Rooms influenced by this shrine
    • Allow the use of altar-rituals within influence of this shrine
    • Health regen within influence of this shrine
    • Mana regen within influence of this shrine
    • Increase skill levels
    • Crafting speed
    • Harvest speed
    • Fish weight
    • Private rooms
    • Sense travel of enemies
    • Block enemy communication (except says)
    • Can hear all talking in range
    • Leveled stat gain or loss
    • Celerity effect
    • Slow enemy movement
  • Shrine Room only
    • Travel
    • Starburst/Redemption (not sure how that would work yet)
    • Increase/Decrease res time
    • Balance and EQ speed/slow (that's very powerful, not sure how it would work)

SANCTUMS
Sanctums a special sect areas that can only be accessed by the sect members. They can be infiltrated by other cults/sects, but it will be fairly hard and really only possible when a player entered their sanctum and is not paying attention. We forsee these as areas that are expansions of the mythos of the sect and can be filled with creatures, special mobs, and quests if players desire.
  • Sanctums are accessed via the temple.
  • Entering a Sanctum will cost faith.
  • Cults get 10 rooms. Sects get 25.
  • Rooms can be built via player input at a faith cost to the cult/sect.
  • Cults/Sects get a portal point for every few shrines they have (not sure on the number)
  • Portal points lead to different sub areas within the Sanctum.
  • Subareas via portal points are 10 rooms
  • Portal points will become inactive if a cult/sect loses shrines.
  • Cults/Sects can submit mobs for their area.
  • Faith is spent when placing mobs or a spawner to create the mobs.
  • Quests can be placed on mobs, they must be done by an Entity and only for sects.

TEMPLES
  • Cults will be given access to 5 room temples.
  • Add more environments to temple building.

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Comments

  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    DO NOT focus on the specifics right now. Things like how much faith does something cost, how many shrines can I make, and so on is not important at this point (it will be in the future). Right now we need a system that people will enjoy and participate in (if they want to). Let's talk about the major ideas and we can hack out the number and specific powers later.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    I like the ideas presented here, but they do nothing to address my overall issues with the system. Cults and Sects don't feel like they fit in Imperian. Entities are still largely toothless against one another and seem to have no bearing on whatever the storyline to Imperian is these days.

    I realize those are more complicated issues to solve, but that's personally what I'd want looked at. Otherwise, I'm in a good spot with the mechanical aspects of the system, although I'm sure someone like Khizan who's more actively involved with the system right now can critique that. 
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • CadeyrnCadeyrn Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    I love the opportunities that the Sanctum additions provide.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know how much fun I would have maintaining a grid of 'shrines'. It seems like it will just be another system where numbers would trump strategy, which means that smaller sects or cults will get demolished by tremendous ones. It also really favors larger sects and cults based on the model of having more hands to provide for, upkeep, and build more shrines. This is why I favour the idea of a 'sect champion' system, where you have a 'vaunted elite' group of warriors (maybe 1-3 for cults, and 5 for sects) whose prime directive is to spread the faith through war and combat. I feel like this current model was essentially be, 'OK, the 50 dudes I have are going to do this thing - good luck keeping up with your 8, 17, or even 22.' - sects have gotten this big, cults have gotten this big. It isn't hard to blindly mass recruit and get people to do menial labor like bash, quest, or even hand over/use their blood from shardfall PK. They are doing that all of that stuff anyways, after all.

    I like the framework, but I hate the possibility of numbers being the overwhelming factor here. Also, the shrine system doesn't seem to allow for the fact that we are now involved in a 'macro-conflict' - AM vs. Demonic vs. Magick. This means that same-circle sects shouldn't be capable of accidentally or purposefully hurting one another. It just strikes me as 'wrong' - especially when I know of two or three cult/sects in AM whose altars are all literally in the same area as one another and within a ~10 room walking distance of one another. I know you think this will generate RP, but the extent of the RP will be 'We're bigger and more important, so move aside, sorry'. There's not going to be much RP there; in other circles, there is really only one super sect (Magick) or the sect altars are so far out of the way from one another that it doesn't matter (Demonic) - I have the altars mapped out and only Anti-Magick really suffers this kind of 'clumping' and only they will engage in this kind of 'RP'.

    I think the system for shrine upkeep and shrine attacks sounds very tedious at first glance, but I will digest it more and post again later. It once again raises my concerns: this looks like another all-inclusive mindset combat system, which we already have plenty of (obelisks, shardfalls, etc), and it heavily favours the larger numbers of certain sects or cults above smaller ones. Moreover, if one cult or sect in a circle is helplessly or has no horse in race of that specific area's shrine-web, what stops them from also joining in, making it more and more imbalanced? In the end, this will boil down to another circle vs. circle conflict, except it'll be the Church of AM vs. the Church of Demonic vs. the Church of Magick. I don't like that, it sounds boring, and eventually I feel like you need to consider the idea of a more 'exclusive' system where the people doing the heavy-lifting PK is smaller. I can forgive the idea of a sect or cult having a leg up by having 15+ more bashers of medium to strong power level - but only if we have a way to demonstrate they are working for their sect and that is a PKable offense.

    I love the ideas of sanctums for sects, but I despise the idea of cults getting temples (and maybe sanctums, you are very vague on that one). The point of sects existing is that they have benefits over a cult (an entity, more rituals, etc) - we were sold this package of temples being one of these things. Why are you intentionally taking these things away from the benefits package? It has no apparent reason. If people don't care about moving to sect status, they shouldn't get the benefits that were denoted as sect rewards. I know this is horribly elitist and snobbish of me, but if you hand cults this, what's next? What is the point of distinguishing cults and sects if you are going to hand-me-down everything to them anyways? There has to be a line drawn, and if you draw the line somewhere else, you risk making cults mechanically invalid in a conflict system, and I know you don't want that.

    Criticism so far on relics: I am nervous they will just become order miracles again. The idea of acquiring them from certain activities is interesting. Can you steal relics from shrines when they are defiled to death?
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    @Bathan So are you wanting more of a way for entities to directly attack each other (or the other sects). For example. An entity could use belief to reduce shrine influence from 5 rooms to 4. Or maybe something directly at the ent itself?
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Jeremy said: @Bathan So are you wanting more of a way for entities to directly attack each other (or the other sects). For example. An entity could use belief to reduce shrine influence from 5 rooms to 4. Or maybe something directly at the ent itself?

    No, he means that they have no agency in the actual storyline of Imperian. They aren't allowed to do anything cool against one another in a roleplay situation because none of the sects want to compromise the idea of losing in an RP event or in a PK event ever. The entities basically have no     purpose in Imperian outside of being a living incarnation of a cult concept, which can only go so far before something, narrative-wise, hits a dead end. Look at Conquest for a great example: the Conquest concept is good, and it would have loved the war right now .. but they will/would NEVER conquer the world. It is a fruitless effort, it is impossible mechanically, etc. They hit a dead end when no sect wanted to clash with them and they had no way to express their power or purpose in a tangible fashion. 
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    edited December 2013
    @sarrius I am not sure there is a way that numbers will never be better. Even in a system where with 5 sect champions. I am pretty sure one sect could manage to recruit five of the best fighters and own everyone. However, I am all for reducing the need for tons of numbers.

    I don't think the need for numbers is as great as you think in this system. Will numbers help? Sure, but that can be said about anything we devise, unless we limit features to single individuals only. A system that only a few people can use is not that much fun though.

    Cults will get reduced versions of everything. I am not going to exclude them. The problem is a lack of volunteers who want to play with sects, not good cults. We want as many people to participate as possible.
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    edited December 2013
    Sarrius said:
    No, he means that they have no agency in the actual storyline of Imperian. They aren't allowed to do anything cool against one another in a roleplay situation because none of the sects want to compromise the idea of losing in an RP event or in a PK event ever. The entities basically have no purpose in Imperian outside of being a living incarnation of a cult concept, which can only go so far before something, narrative-wise, hits a dead end. Look at Conquest for a great example: the Conquest concept is good, and it would have loved the war right now .. but they will/would NEVER conquer the world. It is a fruitless effort, it is impossible mechanically, etc. They hit a dead end when no sect wanted to clash with them and they had no way to express their power or purpose in a tangible fashion.


    Okay, this is a side track then and needs its own thread. I am not against entities doing massive things, so I am not sure why you think that. Entities just need to agree between themselves ahead of times and plan out an RP. I am fine with any ent planning a major RP event. I am pretty open to letting ents do anything they want that falls within existing history of the game.

    That being said, we cannot destroy or permanently occupy cities. That is only fun for the winning side and alienates the rest of the game.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Jeremy said: @sarrius I am not sure there is a way that numbers will never be better. Even in a system where with 5 sect champions. I am pretty sure one sect could manage to recruit five of the best fighters and own everyone. However, I am all for reducing the need for tons of numbers.
    I don't think the need for numbers is as great as you think in this system. Will numbers help? Sure, but that can be said about anything we devise, unless we limit features to single individuals only. A system that only a few people can use is not that much fun though.
    Cults will get reduced versions of everything. I am not going to exclude them. The problem is a lack of volunteers who want to play with sects, not good cults. We want as many people to participate as possible.


    I just dislike the setup of today's scene, where everything is a 'team effort'. I know you will say that one on one never existed, and honestly, we can come to agree that really that is a splitting of hairs. Yes, you can recruit five awesome dudes in your circle - but that is fine. It means you are cutting away the chaff on your side and the chaff on their side and reducing it down to a battle between the sacred champions of your organization instead of one Joan of Arc and 19 nameless French dudes. I know this will be decried by the typical crowd of @Ahkan, @Khizan, and etc as 'e-bushido' and 'white knighting', but I firmly believe that limiting the real gritty combat down to the big boys in     one system in a game full of tons of everybody-gets-to-play combat systems is perfectly acceptable and would even be refreshing. I don't even want everybody to not participate, I just want a niche in this system where class design and micro-PK (duels, small team conflict like 3v3 or 4v4) can shine again instead of being buried beneath the grime of a ton of people throwing themselves in to cartoon brawl dust cloud.

    I think the flavor is there - you are annointing a sacred champion of your sect or cult's concept. They are carrying the burden of the believers and shed blood for them. It encourages roleplay in itself - I know we will all game it, but in this instance, I see the opportunity for some roleplay to be attached to that gaming of the system. The mechanical possibility is there - you can attach it to any one of these ideas you proposed. You could even sell it as another system to attack or battle inside a sanctum for sect benefits.

    The system, on paper, looks like it rewards having more people on your side to do your dirty work of bashing, questing, building, defiling, and sanctification. It doesn't have a cap on participation besides 'hourly sanctification/defilement'. 

    EDIT: Dude, these forums suck, can we please get new ones? :/


    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jeremy said:
    Sarrius said:
    No, he means that they have no agency in the actual storyline of Imperian. They aren't allowed to do anything cool against one another in a roleplay situation because none of the sects want to compromise the idea of losing in an RP event or in a PK event ever. The entities basically have no purpose in Imperian outside of being a living incarnation of a cult concept, which can only go so far before something, narrative-wise, hits a dead end. Look at Conquest for a great example: the Conquest concept is good, and it would have loved the war right now .. but they will/would NEVER conquer the world. It is a fruitless effort, it is impossible mechanically, etc. They hit a dead end when no sect wanted to clash with them and they had no way to express their power or purpose in a tangible fashion.


    Okay, this is a side track then and needs its own thread. I am not against entities doing massive things, so I am not sure why you think that. Entities just need to agree between themselves ahead of times and plan out an RP. I am fine with any ent planning a major RP event. I am pretty open to letting ents do anything they want that falls within existing history of the game.

    That being said, we cannot destroy or permanently occupy cities. That is only fun for the winning side and alienates the rest of the game.

    I don't think it is off topic, but I'll let Bathan or somebody else open a thread with their own thoughts on it. I think it is mostly that the narrative of Imperian makes no room for entities. There's no story explanation for them, no reason for them to exist lore-wise (lots of philosophical posturing here IC, though, Hastati was and @Vyir has been forced to listen to me rant about it when interacting with me), and there's nothing that really explains why the cosmos suddenly spit them out once the Gods up and exploded in to fruit loop essence. If you can account for that, a lot of people might feel a little better.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 197 ✭✭✭
    Sarrius said:
    stuff

    Another side note to add to Sarrius' comments - Having a system built around everyone PKing also discourages new cult creation and less RP because everyone is going to want to hop into the same cult just so they can have something that doesn't suck. Thus having the inclusive everyone PK in a cult is kind of a self-defeater in that people also won't be able to get involved with the kind of cult RP they want.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    See: Church of AM, Church of Magick, Church of Demonic syndrome. If one sect gets too big, people will forsake RP for the mechanical benefits inherent in a bigger sect. 
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It was explained by the first entity to pop up, sort of.

    When the hammer asploded the connection to the demon realms, all the god-juice that was in it was spread around. God juice likes other god juice, and collected into tiny godlings, which became spontaneously sentient.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    Okay, sidetracked. @lionas has it right, and I think it has been posted a few times and is in HELP ENTITIES. Any further discussion in a new thread. This is for system debate. 
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know this is going to sound sort of skipping-recordish.. but if you go through with any sect conflict system, can we maybe beta it briefly to work out the kinks? Then we can stress test it and see what does and doesn't work, so to speak. 
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Not gonna lie here, bros. There isn't a story line anymore. It was sort of 'rebooted' and we're still in the fall out and settling out period of the death of the Gods. The system for entities is also being build around the 'new' storyline (which mortals are involved in writing) so it's a slow moving process while we figure out everything.

    Sect rituals are order miracles. They're better. I thought this was obvious? My faith in my x,y,z gives me great strength. (mostly because I excel at killing) 
    Oh hey, ADD moment, quests should give some small amount of belief.

    Honestly, I'm a big fan of entities. The recruitment phase is really cool, even if it's metagamed a lot of the time. I've had more fun with 3 months of Olanre than 5 years of 4 versions of Nemesis. There's always a back story to your cult. I love telling the creation story of the Leechwood. I also love hearing the other stories of the creation because no two stories are the same and it adds a lot of depth to the cult/sect since everyone had a very personal experience. My biggest 'meh' with the sect system is after we court an entity and ascend an entity, there's really kind of a "what now?" period. All the cults I've seen have really hit kind of a stagnation period that sort of down spiraled the cult. Conquest and Hunt already self terminated out of it and Leechwood is on the edge. What can we do that's fun not only for me as a player, but for the player on the other side of the entity. When you think about it, that's kind of a hard question.

    Sure, I've got my theories on why some sects fail, but hey. Who cares.


    -As far as the system goes, I'd really, really reduce the initial availability of relics, so that world domination is a gradual thing and not a "we farmed the **** out of strigoi, got dominance, trolololol" like obelisk/shards have been.

    -I like the shrine system and the grid system. Large picture, it's going to be a mix of zerg on zerg and strategic stealth hijinx. Sort of like how shard falls play out. Kind of concerned at the end of the day, it's going to be the winner is who neglected real life long enough.

    -Same circle cults should be capable of harming one another. You really can't avoid this because the shrine system is real estate based. There's only so much turf to claim. You're either going to have to step on some toes to get l33t or you're going to have to play nice. I am 100% for intercircle conflict because it's going to be brief. Why? Because you can always count on some derp (AM right now) to unite the tribes. This is an awesome dynamic that I really think Imperian misses out on. 

    -That being said, the shrine system is going to favor super sects for awhile. Once Conquest gets 30% of the world, they're going to be the team to buy into. You're going to see your min-maxxers coalesce into the hive with all of the toys (just like we saw a migration to AM). Just a heads up. I'm not really sure this is a bad thing, but it's something you should be aware of going into it.

    -There is totally strategy involved in this shrine system and it looks awesome.

    -Sect champions. Always no. Always 150% no. 

    -Sanctums. <3

    In case I'm not expressing myself enough. This system is awesome. I like it. Good work. Kudos. Highfive. Gold star.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    I'm not sold on the idea of sect champions being 'always no, always 150% no'. You never really bring up anything besides 'one v one is terrible'. You have no invested interest in it, that's fine. I do. Others do. I even make the compromise of a smaller scale team situation when suggesting it. You guys got your way for ages now with the shardfalls and obelisks - all-inclusive, team combat. It's time to give small scale combat in the form of duels and tighter knit groups a chance. Yes, players can organize it - but why can't we have a system that encourages it? It's only fair.

    Re: entities, as I've said to Jeremy before, entities being toothless isn't their fault. Humans hate losing. Even if that losing is only constituted by giving up an invisible RP McGuffin, we're never really kosher with it. Conquest lost their entity to who knows what, and I haven't seen Isra around (and nor has her sect) since she removed me from leader. These two sects suffered from the same problem: one end of the leadership isn't doing their share of the work. The problem is that work can only help to keep people actively engaged for so long before we ask ourselves, as you put it, 'well, what now'. A Sect like Hunt will run out of badass monsters to slay (strigoi get boring), a sect like Leechwood isn't going to spread it's influence mechanically, and Conquest was never going to conquer the whole wide world.

    I don't like the idea of intercircle conflict because it breaks down the relationship that matters: Ithaqua and Antioch have to be buddy buddy. Stavenn and Khandava have to be buddy buddy. Celidon and Kinsarmar have to be buddy buddy. You can lace it with venom or disdain, but ultimately, the only dude who's got your back is the other dude in your circle. If you alienate that guy, you run the risk of losing out on a team of shardfall guys, a team to repel obelisk attacks with, etc.

    What I'm concerned about for the relic system is that it will boil down in to a network of buffs that only make one cult or sect relevant, which ends up invalidating the entire purpose of having a player-driven-and-written system like cults.

    EDIT: Hey, who writes the cult/sect shrines? Can they be open-ended, instead of actual shrines? That way it looks like the influence is spreading, instead of us building a network of little stop signs that say 'SARRIUS WUZ HERE', etc.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    -"Cities have- to be buddy-buddy." That's a false assumption. They don't have to be. They only need to be friends when it counts. See, every alliance ever.

    -Champion systems. We've given plenty of reasons. It's exclusive. It makes super sects. It's boring. In the current climate of Imperian, it's a rock/paper/scissors system. The benefit of your e-busido, white knight system is that it can always be a self imposed mini-game in every PVP system ever released. You don't need to code for it so that you can measure your e-peen rolling bads. There's already a street cred champion system. It's why you run from Eldreth. :(

    -The Leechwood's is not one dimensional. There are a myriad of other tasks and roleplays that you can build into Leechwood. That's what's awesome about Jackals and Leechwood is that they're multi-dimensional and cater to a lot of motives and roleplays. Unfortunately, Hunt was incredibly one dimensional. There just aren't enough pokemon for dudes to become Master's yet. Not to mention, hunting is usually cooler when the hunter didn't die 48 times taking down Bagheera. A lot of the problems in sects/cults is that they're too focused or too vague, and it's really hard to find that badass middle ground.

    -Nah, there's enough depth here to allow for a lot of avenues of approach for 'belief'. Actually, there's a lot of depth to this system. I really don't see how any of this relates to player driven cults. I'm going to go to the cult I enjoy the most and think is coolest. It's my job to get relics by any means necessary. If I want my cult to have shrines, it's my responsibility as a player to lead my dudes to getting relics and make shrines so Olanre will cuddle me later. That's...uhm, entirely player driven.
  • TahirahTahirah Member Posts: 102 ✭✭✭
    It'd be cool if some things deviated away from like, pvp/e and were more RP oriented. That's how player-driven works, imo. otherwise its just a bunch of dudes who can code that lets them run everything as well as piles responsibility & survivability on them alone. *yawn* :\
    (Only if we keep voting!)
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tahirah said:
    It'd be cool if some things deviated away from like, pvp/e and were more RP oriented. That's how player-driven works, imo. otherwise its just a bunch of dudes who can code that lets them run everything as well as piles responsibility & survivability on them alone. *yawn* :\
    The trouble is that it's difficult to handle and balance giving rewards for RP. It should absolutely be present, and this system insists on it some in the interaction between orgs (especially cults in-circle), but beyond that the only reward you get is the progression of your personal/org storyline.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • TahirahTahirah Member Posts: 102 ✭✭✭
    I guess I did as a newb speak rather out of turn, without knowing what sort of admin we have at our expense. Was thinking along the lines of overall activity - Person A hunts a eff-ton but person B preaches/practices/lives this sect's ideals an eff-ton also. I suppose so neither can be overlooked. you're right though, it would be hard to monitor without admin to have time to more or less sneak a peek at what various members are up to.
    (Only if we keep voting!)
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tahirah said:
    I guess I did as a newb speak rather out of turn, without knowing what sort of admin we have at our expense. Was thinking along the lines of overall activity - Person A hunts a eff-ton but person B preaches/practices/lives this sect's ideals an eff-ton also. I suppose so neither can be overlooked. you're right though, it would be hard to monitor without admin to have time to more or less sneak a peek at what various members are up to.
    Well, you're talking cross purposes here. The player that spends time preaching should get noticed by the sect's entity and rewarded with an entity favor, but that isn't something that plays into the kind of system we're talking about here with shrines.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    That being said, I wish we could always reward good RP.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Time to hire someone to be in charge of storyline development/RP IMO!

    /off-topic self
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Imperian, Age of the Samurai
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    No to 1v1 for Sect System, but I say yes to 2v2 4v4.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My one big concern is maintenance. Specifically, I don't want Imperian to end up feeling like something like WoW where I HAVE to make  time to do my dailies or I'll fall hopelessly behind, and I don't want it to end up as something where I end up feeling like I need to dragoon sect members into constant bashing because otherwise we'll fall behind competitively. 

    Also, I really like Caelya's idea. If some of the entities were shells that would ally with "neutral" factions like the liches or the horde or some other NPC group, there would be more room for entities to lose to other entities without getting the player feelings as involved.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

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