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Big changes in the Oct-Nov 2012 classlead cycle

13

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  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thinking about it, I'd like to be able to use Uruz from a circle as a healing effect, similar to hands or vigour.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Khizan said:
    Thinking about it, I'd like to be able to use Uruz from a circle as a healing effect, similar to hands or vigour.
    Completely reasonable, presuming it isn't comboable.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If it's not comboable, I'd like it to skip the internal cooldown for it entirely. If it is comboable(which it shouldn't be, really), I'd say to give it long internal cooldown to prevent me from just spamming dsl/heal all day.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tankiest class in game needs a burst heal? Nah.

    Just out of curiosity, wytchen already have two mechanisms of stealing forms of healing balance. Are these going to be on the same timers as the runes or will they run separately so they can be stacked?
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Diavlous don't need it, really, but they've had vigour for years. If you want to remove it, though...

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012

    THIS IS COMPLETELY AWESOME.

    However, it's also insanely micromanagey. I can have 4 runes per tablet, 50 uses per tablet. There are 15 flareable runes. This means that I need to carry a minimum of 4 tablets to have all my options open to me. However, since using up a tablet will use up all the runes on that tablet, and I can't just resketch one in combat, this means I'm gonna end up carrying around 50 tablets or so just to be sure that I've got all my options open to me every fight and that I don't run out in a shardfall or prolonged obelisk fight.

    I can see why you'd want us to expend inks or such, but couldn't we just get slightly more expensive tablets that have a shorter lifespan if that's the case? I'd rather have one tablet I have to prepare every week or so than an inventory full of them that I have to painstakingly maintain and resketch every week or so.

    And could sowulu only require a wielded tablet, not a wielded tablet containing the rune? The way it is now, I'm just going to make a complicated system to juggle through sowulu tablets as they burn out. It's not that hard for me but it is irritating, and and people who aren't as good as I am at writing systems are going to have considerably more trouble with it. 

    Post edited by Khizan on

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    Runes on a tablet should have unlimited uses, because having to carry around so many tablets with duplicate setups is annoying. I put sowulu onto every single tablet I have, just to avoid the bother of juggling to one with sowulu. Whatever the case, it's cluttered and really serves no purpose, other then to burn more inks then ever before.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    What would really help is some utility to allow us to check what tablets require refilling and which ones are nearly out, as well as how many uses of each rune we have.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    I'm not trying to cry OP, OP here, but something I would like considered.

    LKs are now capable of utilizing sowulu on a four second CD to do 10% health noblock damage. That stacks with sensitivity, which turns a 55 damage hit on me into 76.  That mechanic is essentially unlimited. Yes, it cannot be used by multiple LKs given the ICD or with a claymore which I appreciate, but it effectively puts LKs at the top of the totem pole as far as damage goes given its sustainability and lack of RNG. Templars have about six DSLs to damage (which, as a clever Templar, I do about 20 more damage with sensitivity than sowulu does with sensitivity)  before being out of our primary mechanic and forced to either rerite, which, at quickest is 12 to 14 seconds of being off equilibrium or continue DSLing for varied damage, based on weapons. DKs deal with RNG as it comes to soulquench, plus, and this is minor but still worth mentioning, the need to requench every thirty seconds.

    LKs can also transfix, which is something unique to Knight combat.

    LKs have a defensive setup of 20/20 across the board. This is noblock, this is holy damage, all those fringe outliers, on top of level 2 regen and +3 con. (Weathering, +2 jera from runemastery.)

    Templars have 25/15 (toughness, earthshield) and 15/15 to Magick/Electricity. No extra health, our regen comes in form of one of the hardest hitting flare rites we have. We have +1 con from weathering.

    DKs have 30/30 with runes and putrefaction, +2 con (jera, weathering) and level 1 regen.

    While the ICD of sowulu makes it impossible for three LKs to just slam on someone with sowulu, the new flares have enough versatility to where, if planned, and I just saw this, a group of LKs can block health sipping, toadstool and still hit hard with sowulu.

    Again, it's nothing game breaking, and I'm guessing the answer is to just rebuild Templar from the ground up, but I thought I'd share because where as LKs were on the bottom rung of Knights before, they're definitely at the top now and Templars resume their old, lifelong role as the worst of the Knight classes.

    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”

  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Honestly. Carrying 500 tablets is dumb and an unnecessary pain in the ****. Increase the cost of tablets and reduce the decay time if you want to make people buy tablets. The way you designed the skill set requires you to track a lot of runes. Don't make me track a lot of tablets. I'm sure we're rune masters, we can fit an entire alphabet on a piece of stone. Hell, primitive civilizations could. Look at Canada!

    Flare sowulu reflects a lack of understanding of knight combat (and the playerbase). Sorry. People are going to trade in their crappy etchings for chargers/sharpen and be rolling around doing 300-400 damage  strych/strych combos. You've just made the tankiest class in the game the highest burst dps in the game and it's doing 12% of your health in unblockable damage every 3.4s. All you need to do is make the cooldown longer and use it as a burst finisher that you can use once in a while. By once in awhile, I mean maybe 20%-30% of the dsls.  Please don't bring soulquench up, apples and oranges, dear heart.

    Flare Nairat somehow eclipses sowulu as lack of understanding. Calotropis was annoying when it was an rng bonanza. I'm really excited to see a two-shot calotropis back in the game! Flare nairat, dsl ciguatoxin. Laugh. Win. Please fix.


    Flare sowulu isn't very useful  for wytchen. 10% health damage is a crappy trade off for using your curse/dustthrow to blow deafness.
    Flare inguz? I don't benefit that much from someone who is prone who can easily stand back up.
    Flare eihwaz is practically non-existent for wytchen. Easy fix? Make it block the next curseward

    Loshre/Nairat are badass. I'm sort of edgy about wytchen having these abilities on top of confound/steal. Will have to play with this.

    This is why you need to differentiate runeguard-runelore and wytchen-runelore. It's too hard to balance useful toys for both classes. We'll do the work for you. We can send you a list of demonic words/phrases to replace runes and their effects.
    Post edited by Ahkan on
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The circle has 'charges' not the runes. This seems like a good idea until you lose 400g in inks because the circle lost charge mid-combat. Could we have the charges moved to the runes and just have to sketch 1 circle per tablet?



  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Tablets still need work. The mechanic for the way you flare runes with tablets is unhelpful, bad, and annoying. There are runes that are going to be used more frequently than others because their cooldowns are lower and they're more  useful depending on the situation. Losing a fully inked tablet because I used a low level rune several times is silly.The solution is not, "Carry 45 tablets with one rune on each. That sort of micromanaging is annoying and it's a crappy work around."
    Post edited by Ahkan on
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Also, while we're at it. Quality of life upgrades that should not wait until classleads:

    -Activation message for laguz/lagul/lagua going up.
    -Deactivation message for laguz/lagul/lagua going down.

    P.S. The circles had them. ctrl-c, ctrl-v. Presto!
  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ahkan said:
    The solution is not, "Carry 45 tablets with one rune on each. That sort of micromanaging is annoying and it's a crappy work around."
    That seems like exactly what you should do, if you get charges per tablet and you don't even have to wield them anymore. Why would you put an expensive ink on the same tablet with your most commonly used flare, with the mechanics as they are? You should have several sowulu tablets, several nairat tablets, and only iterate down on the ones you're using. Treat them like you would toxins, that seems easier rather than harder.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Flawed logic is flawed. Basically, the band is playing crappy music. We're asking if they can change the tune. You're convincing people to dance to the terrible music. Your metaphors are bad too. Toxins have 50 applications. The mechanic is tolerable when there's a reasonable amount of uses associated with the vial. That's not the case with runelore. Runes are more expensive per use than toxins and are have less than 50 applications per use. Nevermind the fact certain runes require the tablets to be wielded. The idea is to make the game user friendly. It's why the released g-bot and added queues into the game itself. Having to keep track of 45 tablets, while making sure you know the exact numbers of them and wield them in at the right time is hardly user friendly or beneficial to the game. There's already enough code juggling in Wytchen (and demonic in general) that we don't need any more.

    tl;dr: Our solution is more elegant and user friendly. It doesn't effect you at all. (our solution is also along the same train of thought as your qq flare classleads.) Suspicious how the tables turn...
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    Have you ever used Artistry sketches? You have to craft paper, craft a sketchbook, draw the sketches, ink the sketches. All of this costs gold! And then you still have to wield the sketchbook and tear the sketch to use one and because they are defeated so easily and expire after they have attacked enough you have to get out another. People using tablets in their current state can't really complain.
  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Though I'd rather spend gold on tablets than burn through my entire devotion reserve in a long 30 minute shardfall battle and be unable to do anything with Templar for the few hours after.
  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ahkan said:
    Having to keep track of 45 tablets, while making sure you know the exact numbers of them and wield them in at the right time is hardly user friendly or beneficial to the game. There's already enough code juggling in Wytchen (and demonic in general) that we don't need any more.

    It's my understanding that you already don't have to do this anymore - that having any tablet at all wielded is good enough.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    After spending an embarrassingly long amount of time coding, testing, theorizing, testing some more, I have thus discovered that Runeguard is still useless at high tier combat. I have an almost level 3 weapon equivalent, but because weapon runes are taken away, I need to be fast or I can't really get any stacks(even with nairat and loshre flares), and even after I get a stack, the low damage modifiers for afflictions, random transfix writhe-out times, and really slow impale times makes it impossible to pull off any semblance of a good finisher on a target. That being said, I do understand why weapon runes were taken away and am fine with that.

    Sure, this works against people who are generally bad, but I could just straight DSL/Sowulu those people to death or they'd die by sabre damage anyway. Runes were great for giving knight a big damage dealing boost, but for anyone who's Aspect and has a surcoat/evasion, you'd best hope your stack goes just right and they get the long transfix writhe time instead of the super short one and you can out-ping them(And I even live near the servers) for the impale. Pithakhan/Sowulu/Eihwaz and the like simply made killing people who would've died by the old dsl/battlecry die faster.

    I like the idea of impale/disembowel being a finisher of sorts after using timed nairats to stack them up, but as a knight, it just doesn't work in practice. The weapon runes made it feasible to stack toxins decently before. Now, it's only for people who have higher than level 3 weapon stats and fast(See: Risca and his artifacts), and even then it's nigh-impossible to pull it off.

    I'm just a bit disappointed that tablets didn't end up really fixing the knight problem after all, that being that there's no real goal to work towards. I'm sure this applies to Templars too-- There's no real finisher, just an awkward meandering about with really expensive artifacts or artifact level weaponry and hoping you can pull some weird thing out of your **** for the kill.

    I'm rambling because I'm really kind of sad this didn't pan out the way I'd hoped it would.

    TL;DR New tablets and stuff are cool, didn't fix runeguard's inherent killing problem, only made it more effective against lower tier combatants who would've died anyway.

  • CaelyaCaelya Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭✭
    New Runelore doesn't make Runeguards fantastic at 1v1, no, but tablets are definitely more feasible than old circles.

    However, the major benefit is team combat. Runeguards have more synergy than ever before with other magick classes or even with other Runeguards. It's pretty amazing, from my experience. Runeguard is also probably the best bashing class in the game (or at least the easiest). It's always really been a team-support class, and it works until such a time that all the knight classes are revamped completely, if ever.

  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    In all perfect honesty, sowulu/pithakhan just replaced battlecry as far as DPS goes. Weapon runes were also taken out, which reduces your weapon DPS. It's a little better for team combat, but I wouldn't call it a major benefit, especially since people don't synchronize flared runes for effectiveness, most people spam sowulu. That means you're just getting one person's rune compliment, and any more runeguards(unless they're tracking rune flares) are hands down less effective than the cryknight era.

    And from my experience, no one even hits the same damned target, much less coordinates rune usage.
  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gurn said:
    In all perfect honesty, sowulu/pithakhan just replaced battlecry as far as DPS goes. Weapon runes were also taken out, which reduces your weapon DPS. It's a little better for team combat, but I wouldn't call it a major benefit, especially since people don't synchronize flared runes for effectiveness, most people spam sowulu. That means you're just getting one person's rune compliment, and any more runeguards(unless they're tracking rune flares) are hands down less effective than the cryknight era.

    And from my experience, no one even hits the same damned target, much less coordinates rune usage.
    Sounds like a circle problem, not a skill problem.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I believe you are forgetting how hard disembowel hurts with a stack of physical afflictions.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Runeknight can't stack fast enough without weapon runes to make it effective, for the mass majority of people. I've been able to manage it a bit, but the setup for impale goes like this:

    Flare mannaz at the beginning so you have fast runes.

    You now get to use Wunjo and Nairat when you've got them stacked. Say I've got my speed going good, I'm now at 10 afflictions on them.

    I pop nairat, they can't cure two afflictions. Cool. They're not healing until my next attacks, essentially.

    I hit Wunjo for the nairat set on the ground to transfix them. Healing's back.

    I impale. About two afflictions have been cured in this time.

    They're writhing from transfix. I hope it's the long transfix writhe, because if it's short, the 2.5 average writhe time of impale will not work with the 4.7 balance of impaling.

    Speaking of 4.7 seconds, that's another two herb afflictions cured. Oh, purge and tree are probably back now, there goes another two. They're also healed to essentially full health, because anyone I'm trying to kill like this won't die to sabre damage, and thus won't have taken much damage.

    By the time I'm disemboweling, I've got a maximum of 4 afflictions on them, supposing I got a perfect 10 stack on them. That puts them down to about 20% health, but my long disembowel time means I'm stuck at leaving them to heal until I recover.

    Now they're at about 40-50%, and we already established that my sabre damage can't outdamage them, and the reason I'd be stacking them with afflictions is because my broadsword or battleaxe damage definitely doesn't kill them either. This is best possible situation, usually.

    The point of the previous sowulu/pithakhan argument was to say that it didn't actually help team combat terribly much, just changed the way damage is dealt, which feels different, but if we look at numbers, it's more or less the same as the era of the cryknight(which isn't a bad thing).
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The main problem Magick has with runeguards is simple: We don't have enough of them. If all of our terrible people went back to being claymore runeguards, we'd go back to dominating, because we'd have a force of tanky people who could get away with mashing the kill button. 

    Flares could use a bit more tweaking to make them better for 1v1, but they're already far better than circles. What we're really seeing here is the result of trying to balance knights for 2h, broadsword/axe, and sabre. Not to mention the fact that every knight class shares a tertiary skillset with another class which has a completely different kill method.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    It's not flares specifically that are the issue, it's that the core issue hasn't been addressed through flares. It's that there's no actual kill method to go towards besides generic damage and generic behead/cleave. 
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can afflict reasonably well as a knight with anything < 2.3s. The key to that is intelligent use of oxalis and toxins. This and nairat/loshre is amazing. I'm not really feeling like telling you how to do it, but I can think of a few nasty combinations. Do not flare on every combo, it's going to slow down your dsls. You're going to have to flare intelligently and at the proper times in the fight. 

    Limb damage as a knight is always good, especially considering torso damage increases writhe time. You can even use carved runes with limb damage. Back in the day, impale/battlecry was the way to go. Sadly, battle cry was dumb and the classlead to battle cry destroyed its use in 1v1. You can still writhe stack to impale and pull off the disembowel. I've been disemboweled for 80% of my health before. You should disembowel someone for 80% of theirs. After that, you can sowulu/pithakhan/hugalaz your way to victory.

    All this being said, Runeguard is the tankiest class in the game and brings a stupid amount of utility to a team. It's pretty reasonable that they don't have the put away power that Templars and DK's do. 

  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    I get the feeling no one actually read my post, because I addressed all these problems.

    I don't flare on every combo, I flare mannaz in the beginning, then stack away until I need to flare. Carved runes are too slow to be effective at all.

    Limb damage doesn't do anything for the Runeguard. I've done torso damage things. Once again, I'm not looking at bads, I'm accounting for good parries. Good parries mean I'll be losing 30% of my attacks, on average. That means no toxin stacking and literally no danger for the opponent. Better hope they're bad enough that I can survive through that.

    Writhe stack, as mentioned above, can only be pulled off with a transfix. Now you can take a chance with oxalis, or do a wunjo flare nairat. Either way, I'm going to pull a disembowel off in a good run, but it will be nowhere near enough to do anything significant to a good player.. As I've already mentioned.

    And I also addressed why sowuluu/pithakhan/hugalaz after doesn't work. 


  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I read your post. I implied that you're probably doing it wrong. I can afflict as a wytch with one flared nairat and a single messaged affliction every 1.7s (Sans hecate/cadmus). So can you!

    Solution 1: Feint slash. Yes, you don't hit with two toxins, but hey, it's a viable option.
    Solution 2: Systems parry predictably.Watch their system. Avoid it. (Protip: A lot of people parry last limb hit.)
    Solution 2a: If they're parrying torso, they're begging to be rift-locked.
    Fact 1: "Good" people still die to limb damage. Let me introduce you to Azefel.

    Writhe stacking kills good players. How do you think AM teams kill people half of the time? 
    Step 1: Sketch nairat on ground.
    After this, I can think of two things to do here to stack writhes. They're both useful and set up disembowels. (You want to dsb with at least strychnine stuck. Which can be done.)

    -Use sowulu as a finisher. There's nothing saying you can't disembowel khizan, quickdraw highdamagebattleaxe, dsl into a flared sowulu. 
    -Pithakhan isn't going to kill anyone, but it's going to allow you to build up momentum. If they don't sip before the disembowel, that's sad...it really is.
    -Hugalaz prevents the inevitable shield turtling. I've seen it work pretty well, so maybe you just had bad luck. The rock to the head is -awesome-. You should highlight it so it makes you smirk every time it happens.

    If you're not killing someone with 10 afflictions stacked, you've got to be doing something wrong. If you can stack 4, why not keep going? If I can vivisect off of a 5 toxin stack, you can find something useful to do too.

    **You should ask Hozreas how2knight. I've seen him disembowel many people as a templar before they were awesome.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Solution 1: No, it's not. It's a timebomb which doesn't actually help the kill method. It may somewhat extend my chance of getting disembowel, but likely I'm going to get the disembowel off with a wunjo flare. Doesn't help anything, because it doesn't actually do anything to the disembowel itself.

    Solution 2: See solution 1. Also, it puts me at a massive disadvantage setting up limbs when I could be toxinstacking towards the disembowel instead. Suppose I do limb. Cool. I don't have a toxin stack because of parries. See the issue? Also, the best parriers can predict attack pattern too.

    Solution 2a: Cool I riftlock them. Oh hey, we're back at that problem where I don't have a stack and by the time I stack them their limbs are healed. Suppose I setup, then begin a toxinstack, then break. I really hope my opponent had nothing planned to delay/kill me for three minutes!

    There are two writhes I can pull off: Impale and transfix. Impale requires transfix. When you impale, you can't do any other actions. Transfix requires wunjo flare or oxalis dsl when they're enemied. Hit with oxalis and you're running a pingwar. Congratulations on figuring out that nairat has to be sketched on the ground to do a transfix. Did you have to think hard about that? 



    I'd like to point out that I've done all your "solutions". Hence the testing. You're not telling me anything new, or anything I haven't tested already. After disembowel, as soon as I recover balance, I switch to battleaxe. Disembowel time, as I mentioned before, means that anyone who I'm not having trouble killing with straight damage is going to have plenty of health ready when I actually can attack again.

    The 10 affliction stack was best case example. It's hard to get past 6. When tree/purge/focus pings in, that's when stacks go down again. Comparing vivisect to disembowel is stupid anyway, because vivisect is an instant kill with clear parameters.

    But hey, I mean, if you're so amazing with knightwork, I invite you to pull off the same. Just remember to give them seven seconds to heal before you try any disemboweling.


    By the way, to begin pulling off any toxin stacks with sabres, you have to be fast and have a better than level 3 sabre. 



    Ozreas did mention a decent fix that might work, that is to say, allow rune flares during impale, which would have them be curing less, and maybe also a flare during disembowel.
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