Where to begin?

Setheil

Howdy fellas. I stopped playing IRE games about 7 or so years ago, and I'm interested in coming back. Somebody posted a similar thread recently here (http://forums.imperian.com/discussion/348/new-player-questions), but I had a few specific questions not answered there.

1. Like the OP from that thread, I'm very interested in joining someplace with a community. The Demonic circle was suggested as the most active and involved with newbies back then. Is this still true? Has it shifted? I know it's somewhat cyclical, but I'd have the best intro experience joining a circle that's currently doing well.

2. With autocuring released (and me knowing how to code after college, hooray) I'm very interested in joining the PvP scene. I'm not looking to make a big investment (yet?) just to be competent though. So with that in mind, I'd like to play a class that won't require omni-trans + 20 artifacts to stand a chance at winning in PvP. Which classes does that rule out?

3. Are Wytchen puppets gone? I never played one, but I liked the idea of puppets.

4. I love the idea of a class with a companion, like a wyrm, ouroboros, or hound. However, I've read threads about staying away from afflcition- and limb-oriented classes at the moment. Which of these "companion classes" is doing fine/is easy to get into?

5. I'm assuming leveling through PK won't be available whenever I want. So I'd like to know who is good at bashing relatively early. I remember with the old DEADEYES BLEED BLEED I used to be an absolute monster back in the day.

Thanks I'm excited about returning, and I'm glad to see the game's still alive and doing just fine.

Wysrias

1. I love the demonic circle, but if you're looking for activity, it's probably the worst place to go. We have by FAR the lowest population, though there are quite a few of us who are committed to seeing it through rather than jumping ship to another circle. It does fluctuate, but even when demonic is on top, we're still the smallest. Our major advantage is there's a high concentration of veterans who are loaded up with artifacts and/or experience, and we do have several players who love to help new folk. (I don't intend to deter you - we ALWAYS need more active people and new faces! - but it's the truth)

2. All classes will require you to put in at least a small investment towards your skills, but mileage may vary. Knight classes are always a safe, great starting choice because they only really require one skill for you to contribute heavily in a team, not to mention the great utility and team support abilities (defend, block, etc.). If you're not looking to put in a big artifact investment then affliction classes are probably going to work out better for you, but their contribution in teams is tricky to manage and easy to mess up. Knights, assassins/renegades have the cheapest barrier to entry, but in terms of sheer effectiveness for your team, Summoner and Druid can also be a great choice. They just benefit from more skill investment, whereas knights and assassins really only require 2 of their 3 class skills.

3. Vodun dolls are gone, long live vodun dolls. Wytchen now have Shamanism, which lets you spray glitter all over your enemies to various effect. They're a bit more of a RNG-guided affliction/damage hybrid class now - always fun, sometimes effective, never tanky.

4. Outriders with Wyrmriding fit this bill, and their kill routes are relatively easy to chase compared to other affliction/damage classes. Stab with cold spear, repeat until they're really cold, shatter. Alternatively, stab til they bleed a lot, and then freeze their blood. There's a lot of timing and coordination required on top of that, however, with the numerous pets, traps and throwing axes that supplement their strategies. Diabolist (ouroboros) is a pretty terrible choice all around and likely wont' be changing any time soon - long gone are the days of deadeyes/nightmare spam overloading systems, and now diabolists work towards special afflictions called infirmities that require you to stack individual herb trees. Speaking as someone who routinely plays diabolist, it's not really fun or interesting.

Knights still have their falcons/kestrels/hounds, though they play a much more minor role in combat now that their balance knocks have been removed.

Assassins/renegades have lamias/phantoms and wormholes - those are kind of like pets!

5. As above, diabolists are pretty low tier in terms of bashing potential now. You'll find most of the 'good' bashing classes on AM (predator, priest come to mind) and to a lesser extent magick; demonic has Summoner as their top bashing class due to innate survivability and a very strong bashing attack.

Welcome back! Please don't let my jaded opinions drive you away. There's pretty much a way to make any choice work, just to different levels of effectiveness.

(Really though, don't choose diabolist, you will just feel sad.)

Sarrius

Right now, Demonic is on the descent and AM and Magick are on the rise. If you like classes with companions, Predator and Outrider have them in spades. Predator is terrific for bashing. Outrider isn't too shabby either, frankly, but nothing really beats the raw power Predator has.

Odd as it sounds, there is no better time to go any circle you want than now. I think that when Demonic has its ducks in a row, it does a great job at conflict points like shardfalls, and the other circles likewise do very well for themselves. Magick and AM just have more active people at the moment, which makes the 'ducks in a row' a lot easier to complete. Each circle has great sects (Magick: Primal and Enigma are good, as are their entities @Svorai and @Lazal , AM: Storms is growing day by day and @Xuli is amazing, Demonic: Jackals is an awesome concept and @Nyrohi is the bomb) which leave plenty of cool places to tap for RP.

If you end up coming to AntiMagick, Antioch is a pretty great place to be as a new player because we tend to be very concerned with getting people what they need to do what they want and then not forcing them to go outside of their comfort zone until they want to. We have a Predator and Outrider guild and both of them could always use new people, especially combat-oriented players. Ithaqua is a little more quiet, but has a lot of quality people I have really come to appreciate having around and respect.

Setheil

Thanks for the quick responses guys! It's a shame about Diabolists, but I'm thankful for the honest response. If I do end up going Demonic then I imagine I'd be making a knight.

How is an Outrider's bashing compared to Predators'? The former class is completely new to me, and I think it didn't even exist back when I quit. And how do they compare in terms of money sink necessary to be effective?

I think this is my last question. Is it viable to level almost entirely through PvP? Or should I expect to be a sitting duck until I bash up enough levels? 

Thanks so much for your help!

Myfanwe

Sarrius said:

Each circle has great sects (Magick: Primal and Enigma are good, as are their entities @Svorai and @Lazal , AM: Storms is growing day by day and @Xuli is amazing, Demonic: Jackals is an awesome concept and @Nyrohi is the bomb) which leave plenty of cool places to tap for RP.

Asai

Outrider bashing is pretty great in terms of survivability (vitality, weathering, barkskin, chainmail), and I don't find the damage excessively lower than predator due to deadaim (if you get yourself an even half-decent spear or trident).  I swap between the two quite a lot, really enjoy having the wyrm as opposed to the wolf since you are SUPPOSED to be mounted to bash (small thing).

Also has a good amount of utility, keeps track, mark (travel), gripping, cloaks (can't be unwielded / frost + fire resistance) and gets a few toxins or elixirs to make along the way in trailblazing.

I can't speak on PvP, haven't got into it recently.

Most of the skills I've mentioned there are pretty low in the Trailblazing tree (excluding Mark).  Stability (which gets you more damage when mounted on your wyrm) is quite far up the Wyrmriding tree, and I don't know how stab damage fluctuates with skill (I was already a trans Outrider when the changes were released).

I can't say enough good things about the class... I really enjoyed it back when it used Bonding, love it even more in its current incarnation!

Eoghan

Like other weapon-based attacks, stab damage increases linearly with the applicable skill (in this case, Wyrmriding).

Sarrius

I totally forgot Leechtree got a new entity. Myfanwe is pretty cool too. I bet. I dunno. The name sounds pretty mysterious.

You can pick up your class and probably get in to large scale PVP somewhere in your earlier levels. Your health pool will make you fragile but you will still be useful in plenty of ways if you are attentive and any death of an enemy will be a lot of XP.

Outrider bashing is slower and less powerful in terms of defense and offense. It is a strict downgrade from Predator in that department. Both will generally want the same run of the mill defensive artifacts if you are REALLY serious, but you do get a free sip bonus as Outrider scaling off your Trailblazing rank! You can forge a quality spear or trident (I have plenty), and a sitara from a quality mob is a request away. Sitaras are a little harder to get higher quality stats on but it is possible. A lot of artifacts both classes want are in the range of defensive upgrades and putting your offense somewhere over the top. You will want tri-trans as either class, but you can get away with not transcending Trailblazing right away.

Sarrius

Did I mention Outriders get their own list of class-specific toxins? That is pretty rad.

Khizan

1. Demonic is perhaps the most involved with each other and the most RP intensive, but it's also the smallest circle. It's definitely on the downside combatively, largely because it has no experienced team leaders left. AM and Magick are both doing pretty decently these days. I'm having a lot of fun in AM, myself.
2. My personal choices would be: Demonic: Summoner, Anti-Magick: Priest, Magick: Druid
   
   On the plus side, these are all strong professions that bash well and have crazy amounts of team viability while also being strong in 1v1 combat, and they can all build tanky while remaining effective. On the downside, there's nothing particularly complicated about them, offensively. No afflictions to track or the like.
3. Vodun is dead dead dead.
4. Priests have a Seraph, Outriders have their Icewyrm, Hunters have a basilisk, Defilers have a treant, Diabolists have their Ouroboros. Those are the classes that really rely on some other entity offensively. Other classes have pets, too, but those pets play a smaller role; they are more of a passive attack skill than a core mechanic. These are Runeguards(kestrel), Templars(falcon), Deathknights(hound), Assassin/Renegade(cobra), Predators(wolf/bear/spider/hawk), Druid(golem).
   
   The easy ones to get into are Priest, Outrider, Defiler for the 'major' pet classes. For the 'minor' pet classes, look at Runeguard, Templar, Deathknight, Druid.
   
5. Best Bashers:

• Demonic: Summoner
• Anti-Magick: Predator, Priest
• Magick: Druid
• All three flavours of knight(Runeguard, Deathknight, Templar) are also strong bashers

Setheil said:

Thanks for the quick responses guys! It's a shame about Diabolists, but I'm thankful for the honest response. If I do end up going Demonic then I imagine I'd be making a knight.

How is an Outrider's bashing compared to Predators'? The former class is completely new to me, and I think it didn't even exist back when I quit. And how do they compare in terms of money sink necessary to be effective?

I think this is my last question. Is it viable to level almost entirely through PvP? Or should I expect to be a sitting duck until I bash up enough levels? 

Thanks so much for your help!

I would honestly avoid Predator. It's a powerhouse bashing class, but I find it lackluster in PvP. PvPwise, the thing you need to realize is that you're not a fedaykin with a bone crysknife; the knife does lackluster damage without an absolutely perfect setup. Your best attack is throwing darts at enemies to afflict them and tracking these afflictions client-side to push them towards an affliction kill, which is not really viable in groups.

Outrider is a strong choice. Always useful in groups, strong solo PvP, and decent bashing.

You cannot expect to level primarily through PK, because you'll start with like 50 health compared to my 550 and you will be literally one-shot throughout the entire game. However, dying in PK causes no experience loss in this game; if you are proactive about jumping into group fights at every chance you get and you managed to survive long enough for the group to earn even a single kill, you can get some pretty large experience gains from it.

Ahkan

There's a lot of over statement and chest puffing here. So I'll boil it down for you.

Find a class that is interesting. Play that class.

Team fights, you will always find a place and do something productive. Who gives a rats bum if someone doesn't like it? That's their issue, not yours. Most of the classes are balanced and fun. There are outliers in both pvp and pve. Some of them even have trades where you rock at 1v1, but you're not a very good basher. The game is such that you can bash up aspect with any class and participate in combat and have fun doing so.

Be warned:
Diabolist is crap. (I may have lied. This class sucks. Avoid it.)

Every circle is active. Every circle has rp. Every circle has active sects. Every circle pks. Every circle team pks.

1) Demonic has the best 'stocking up' potential of any circle I've meandered through. Everyone else's city shops are absolute terrible, bar none. If you need something, go to Caanae. All circles do a decent job helping newbies get stuff done. You just have to be pro-active in asking.

2) Wardancer (tri-trans and toys), primarily. Wytchen (tri-trans)

3) Vodun is long gone.

4) All of them. 

5) Any of them bash reasonably well.

Khizan

Ahkan said:

5) Any of them bash reasonably well.

This is sort of true, in that all classes have decent DPS but it's sort of not, in that some classes still suck at bashing, especially when compared to the better classes. Defiler bashes at ~60% the speed of a comparably artifacted Summoner. Assassin is even slower. Mage and monk are glass cannons with decent DPS and no tanking ability. 

To say that they all bash reasonably well is dishonest at best; defiler bashing was so bad that you learned Summoner for the specific purpose of bashing.

Ahkan

You're only mentioning the end-game samples just for the sake of arguing. Cherry picking is bad, mmkay.

5) Any of them bash reasonably well.

Khizan

You'll be out of the lowbie levels so rapidly that they're basically meaningless and the higher your levels/skills get the more notable the differences are. 

Choosing defiler will not be miserable at L15, but you will be miserable at L85. Choosing Summoner will never be miserable. A class that's a glass cannon at lowbie levels may well remain a glass cannon at the upper levels where the other classes gain significant tank as they gain more skills.These are important things to know when you're choosing stuff at the start of the game and it is why people answered the question in the way that they did.

Focusing on the lowbie-game only and ignoring everything past it is cherry-picking the only scenario in which the classes are all reasonably equal at bashing and it's a terribly useless answer that borders on being actively harmful, and you damn well know it. Snipe at Sarrius and I on the forums all you like, but don't try and pass off bad advice to new players just for the sake of disagreeing with us.

Veratyr

Ahkan said it best-play the class you find interesting. The point of the game is to have fun isn't it? Nearly every class in the game has been on top in terms of PK or bashing at one time or another. Things cycle through. Chances are if you stick with the class you find interesting you'll have more fun than picking the FOTM and when it gets nerfed you go play something else because your not OP anymore.

Khizan

"Play the class you find interesting" can be an excellent way to be bashing at 29 DPS at near-aspect levels with an attack balance of 3.6 seconds.

There are many people who find they are better off picking a class that they think is slightly less interesting but which is much more capable. This is especially true at new player levels; an experienced player with a large amount of credits and secondary skills can compensate somewhat for class aspects that are lacking, but new players lack these resources and can't be reasonably expected to gain them just to patch up a class' weakspots. As such, they're often happier in a class like Summoner, Druid, or Priest for the simpler reason that "tanky bruiser" lets them participate in all aspects of the game without being particularly bad at any of them.

Iniar

Also true that tanky bruiser is where the evolution of most combatants get stuck, because its so comparatively easy. That's why we have Karyn etc. etc."One button, sure I can push that"

Setheil

Hehe I'm happy this is generating so much discussion. Both sides of the argument bring up an important point in my decision--I want somebody who bashes and PvPs well, but it's a text game and I'm hoping to pick something with flavorful descriptions and lore that resonate with me. I remember old lowbie bashing on a mage was awful because it was just punching things with stonefists on. 

I understand that bashing utilizes one single skill and it will get boring and repetitive no matter what. But an important factor for me is whether I'm using default weapon attacks or cool abilities (deadeyes, crescentcuts, anything taekyon, etc). 

On that note, what attacks do Priests and Outriders use for their bashing? What's the overall "feel" of either class? I'm trying to experience this firsthand too, but maybe somebody's different point of view can help me reconsider stuff. 

It's disappointing to hear that shops are bad now, I used to love Antioch and Kinsarmar's custom-made items. So that's only really found in Stavenn and Caanae now?

Sarrius

Setheil said:

It's disappointing to hear that shops are bad now, I used to love Antioch and Kinsarmar's custom-made items. So that's only really found in Stavenn and Caanae now?

No, Ahkan is just being obtuse in an effort to pick a fight with Khizan and I. Antioch has stocked shops, with laws provisioning for the confiscation of poorly stocked shops (and I would know if the law is enforced, I run the city). When the year passes over in game, we review shops, warn the shop owners, and then repossess if they do not act on the warning.

The Priest and Outrider bashing is just as boring as any bashing - you smite **** or stab **** with a spear.

The Priest class lost Healing in Imperia - now they have Kanai, which is a righteous crusading skill that utilizes a steadily growing meter to modify your offense or use powerful attacks. It also modifies your smites, saps, etc in different ways. There's a censer you burn stuff in, it is sort of cool. You get your rites/devotion and angel skills like most other IRE games, but there is no 'seraph power' or 'seraph health' that limits your usage of these skills. If you don't like the idea of coding a very complicated offense, Priest is probably the class for you. I have played it, and switched to Outrider because it looked fun and the circle needed an Outrider more than a Priest. A downside is you will usually be targeted first in prime engagements if you know your head from your **** as a Priest.

The Outrider class is a mounted combat specialist. They ride their icewyrms and stab things from the saddle, commanding a group of animal friends to attack their enemies as well. The animals can be 'surged', which modifies their next attack to be much more devastating. This skill costs equilibrium and can be chained with most other Wyrmriding attacks for devastating effect. An Outrider has a lot of avenues of attack, making the class very diverse. While you will be stabbing a lot, you have the option of starting a steadily mounting damage over time effect (with access to a whopping three damage over time afflictions in the form of nausea, recurring freezing, and sun allergy and a very powerful amount of bleeding coupled with the dryblood affliction, which discourages clotting by making you take scaling damage per clot) that is modified by your sizable spear/trident stab damage. This bleeding you cause can be converted to a large amount of frost damage. Or, if you prefer a limb damage offense, you can prepare multiple breaks with stabs and the freezing spear modifier and then stack up levels of hypothermia for an instant kill. There's also room to just stab people repeatedly as an Outrider in teams and just get kills that way. The class is very easy to get in to and has lots of fun toys courtesy of Trailblazing.

Iniar

Also note that admin are trying to slowly implement use of semi-pvp skills in pve other than a bashing attack. Though to be honest, haven't tried them.

Setheil

That last bit is incredibly encouraging. PvE could do with some improvements.

I've picked a city and guild. Thanks for the help everybody

Khizan

Iniar said:

Also true that tanky bruiser is where the evolution of most combatants get stuck, because its so comparatively easy. That's why we have Karyn etc. etc."One button, sure I can push that"

Most people stop at one-button offenses regardless of their profession. There are a ton of Hunters who never get past "claw khizan|basilisk lash khizan". Hell, there's a ton of hunters who don't even use the basilisk lash. 

People tend towards that kind of thing no matter what profession they have. Honestly, I believe that the more complicated classes like Hunter and Renegade make people more likely to go to one button offenses, because their 'real' offense is so complicated and involves so much specific knowledge and affliction tracking and such that it's very easy to feel lost in the profession. There's a reason that Priest used to be called "PK Training Wheels" and there's a reason that so many fighters have gotten their start in classes like Priest and Mage Classic; it's much easier to jump in and start learning how to fight when you don't need to track all these afflictions and understand the curing priorities and this and that and whatnot. Also, the simple and straightforward offenses make it much easier to maintain situational awareness and much easier to get comfortable in the flow of the fight.

Iniar

Sure. Preferably, though, we would have a spectrum of players - one button mashers, people who incorporate some sort of element of strategic decision making relating specifically to their classes' offense, and full blown affliction nerds. All we have is 90% of people thinking PvP is all about smashing one button, 9% of people trying to incorporate some sort of strategic thinking, be it positional/defensive play/etc, and maybe 3 people who are full affliction nerds. What I personally would prefer is that people transition towards a middle ground. At the moment its all haha-I-druided/summonered-your-face.

E: what I'm trying to say is that encouraging people from the get go to use a simple class encourages participation, but actively discouraging them from trying/learning/crying through an affliction class will have long term consequences.

Eldreth

Iniar said:

E: what I'm trying to say is that encouraging people from the get go to use a simple class encourages participation, but actively discouraging them from trying/learning/crying through an affliction class will have long term consequences.

Participation is the grease that keeps the www.imperian.com engine running. Crying is the grease that keeps forums.imperian.com running. If by long term consequences you meant more consistent involvement in PK beyond the same decade-old band of merry griefing pirates (shout out to my brothers!) than I will change my emote from wholly disagree to agree.

Mathiaus

I've been the same class for as long as I can remember. Only ever switched once for a brief time, and recently added another class into my arsenal, but bard has been my bread and butter since the beginning. I wouldn't have played as long as I have had I not picked a class I absolutely enjoyed all these years.

So I definitely agree that you should pick what you want, not what others want for you.

Ahkan

Point still stands, do what you want. Nothing in this game bars you from participating, except people. Case in point:, this thread. It's so easy. Take that into account when you choose which side you want to play.

Combat is as simple or as complex as you want it to be. Autocuring takes a ton of pressure off to be competitive. The rest of it is really just deciding how you want to fight. You can be a one button hero and stomp through this game and be incredibly successful. No one will argue with that. You can also play this game and make it as elegant, complicated, and super duper excessive as you want. As long as that floats your boat, go for it. The big thing is don't force your perspective on any one else (like this thread) and you'll be fine. The cool thing about pk in Imperian is there are hundreds of way to skin a cat. They all work as long as the target dies.

Ignore the bad sales pitches and claims to grandeur. All of the organizations are equal when the totality of the game is taken into account.

Iniar

Exactly what I mean, Eldreth. We need more Iluvs, Riscas, Shous, Viviannes, Gabriels and what have you of tomorrow, and shoveling everyone into Summoner and Druid doesnt help that (at least in my opinion). That said, if someone new tries Assassin/Renegade I always tell them to do something else.

Khizan

Iluv: Plays Summoner in teams
Risca: Plays Druid or Defender RG
Shou: Would be more effective as literally any other AM class, spams damage in teams, notably ineffective in groups aside from cover(as has been noted by virtually everybody on the Demonic Ring).
Vivianne: One Diabolist is good
Gabriel: Plays Druid

Um, those people may not be the best examples. 

More effective arguments would have been the useful assassin/renegades in teams(Ahkan), the useful Hunters in teams(???), and the useful Wytches(Kanthari, whose main use is Runelore utility; he repeats damage combos in the actual fight).

Iniar

I'm lazy.

Edric

Hey, this is OP. I figured I'd start using my actual character name in the forums and not some dinosaur char from 8 years ago.

I understand where you're coming from, Ahkan, and it's certainly encouraging to hear that I should just follow what I like and success will come. I think mine is a good case about why more direct (and possibly "fotm") answers are useful though. See, I was heavily leaning towards the malignists of old. I had a very basic grasp of combat back then, but good enough to win more often than lose against people of a similar level. But I probably wouldn't be having as good of an experience had I stuck to a class that everybody agrees is miserable at the moment.

I'm sure there's newbies who'll take the profession anyway and have a blast with it. But when the community is trying to help the game grow, you want new players (like myself!) to have the absolute best experience as easy and quickly as possible. Helps prevent dwindling numbers in a small community.

I'm sure I'll find my niche, and it might not even be an Outrider after all. While I like it thematically more than priests, I also like the idea that it's perceived as less of a faceroll class. (I don't think you can really call anything in IRE games faceroll, but I digress.) Hopefully I'll understand combat quickly enough to not be a Swifty-macro spammer that's frustrating to play with and against. 

Anyway, thanks for encouraging me to just do my own thing. It's always tempting to just follow the pros when starting a brand new game like this, but starting with a character that I really like will probably be better in the long run, regardless of anything else.

Iniar

Have not met autocuring yet have you