Working on tweaks is great. But that doesn't change the fact that I've almost solobashed up 60%+ belief. Is the symbol supposed to work on it or not? What is the timeline for changes to shrine cost to be implemented.
Please give me a reason to care about this system.
Just curious about the status. Rough outline of changes you're considering? Anything here? Update to make liturgical symbol was great, but system still kinda sucks in a soulsucking way.
This list I posted a few days ago are the main things we are working on. I think these deal with a lot of the problems that have been brought up.
I am not sure how I want to deal with the problem Khizan brought up about PvP belief gains cancelling each other out in drawn out battles, but that is something I am thinking about as well. I am semi considering removing the loss, but the problem is people will farm it.
As far as timeline, I want to get this and the city/guild stuff done this month.
I am going to wait on adding new relics and adjusting effect and cooldowns for at least another month.
I am not sure how I want to deal with the problem Khizan brought up about PvP belief gains cancelling each other out in drawn out battles, but that is something I am thinking about as well. I am semi considering removing the loss, but the problem is people will farm it.
Punish the people who obviously farm it, prohibit them from joining any Cult/Sect in the future.
It would be great if we could get beyond the fear of implementing positive changes because people might abuse them - if it becomes a serious problem then you can tell us we were wrong to want it.
Sect-based daily or hourly resetting diminishing returns on gain should be fine given all the sources of belief/faith drain there are currently, no? Then cut the base PK death loss by a bit (50-75%). punishments for death are okay IMO, but it shouldn't set you back near as much given the drains and uses of belief.
Destroying shrines and relics should be a good boost, though. Maybe 25% or so of the total belief used to destroy it for a shrine, and 25/50/75% based on the level of the relic?
So, I get the whole '3 rooms = 30%, 15 rooms = 90%' idea, but I was wondering how that was actually implemented. Is it '3 rooms' as in, 'you moved 3 times to get here so this is 30%' or a 3-room 'radius'?
For example, there is a shrine in the room with the blue dot and I wanted to build a shrine in room "A", would that count as being within a 1-room 'radius' or a 4-room 'distance'? (room B either being 3 rooms away or within a 2-room radius)
E: added a picture instead because my text-map drawing is terrible. I also don't know why that first part is formatted weird.
1. Obsidian is really hard to get. 4 rock:1 obsidian is roughly the conversion rate per HELP MATERIALS. Glass is similar but shrines requires less of it so it is not as big a deal.
2. Make shrines buildable out of gold,silver or obsidian with different effects depending on what it is made out of.
Obsidian: Takes less damage from defiling
Gold: Requires less commodities to reach max level or make it possible that the stacking issue (if I want to do all spirit comms to raise it to max level rather than a mix of all 3 types) is alleviated by 25% or something
Silver: Make this the baselline, No difference than what you do with shrines now.
3. This mostly comes down to the fact that a lot of the commodity stuff is pretty unbalanced in where it appears. Rock is required for a lot of commodities, probably more than it should be. And the ratio on rock:comm production sucks. Either commodity production needs looked at addressed or shrines need something to be more workable.
Edited in after initial posting:
4. Please give us a way to reroll relics. A lot of relic types will never be used and just languish somewhere. The ability to even have a chance at getting something more useful would be nice.
You've made guild skills reliant on having access to some of these commodities and you've increased the drain on them. The intended balancing feature on shrines wasn't supposed to be scarcity of materials to even make them so far as I know.
I feel like the relics system has largely been a failure so far, because the powers are so limited in scope considering how much effort has to be put into obtaining them to begin with. For any of these powers to be useful, you need to:
a) Be able to build a shrine in the area of interest (obtain idol, spend 90% belief). b) Obtain 1-3 relics of the type wanted, some of which are impossible to find so far. c) Construct a shrine in the room of choice capable of holding those relics (30-90% belief, 300+ drop commodities) d) Somehow stage a fight in exactly that room where that power would be applicable and useful.
Even if conditions A-C were ignored, condition D is enough to render the system obsolete. Think back to shrine powers and how rarely those were used - they had the benefit of not requiring relic accumulation and preservation, were available from the start, affected entire shrine networks for the more 'useful' powers, and had a radius attached for the vast majority of them. Here, we have a system that places much more extreme restrictions and requirements for their use, in a game that has a smaller playerbase than the previous shrine system dealt with, with powers that are near entirely situational (many "double edged" options), and each of which is restricted solely to the room the relic was placed in.
Even if the relics spanned across entire shrine networks, you probably would not see 90% of these powers even used. I've seen firsthand that several have cool messages, and the majority of these won't even get seen - ever! I'm really confused as to what the intention here was, because it seems like a system that would only be applicable in a game with huge player participation and contention for important sites. Shardfalls are transient and unpredictable, caravans have kind of already lost their luster; the only real conflict that could potentially come is from sects taking advantage of PvE bonuses for highly frequented areas, and even then, shrine powers don't matter!
I think, moving forward with this kind of system, relics as a whole need to be completely re-evaluated. The powers range from useless to obscene and are so heavily restricted that it's impossible to imagine scenarios where you'd even get to try them out. Shrine powers should relate to the scope in which shrines are actually applicable: networks in highly frequented areas. The shrine defile/sanctify system is equally poorly conceptualized as it can only switch between a stalemate or a 20+ hour battle of attrition where you're really just hoping nobody from that sect notices/logs on. The powers aren't really applicable there either as a result.
If the relic system is going to be kept, the powers themselves need to be accessible and relevant. Redesigning how shrine conflict works and applying relics in that situation, and perhaps to the PvE benefits as those are largely what are driving sects to build shrines, is probably the best course of action in my opinion.
Doublepost, because I didn't want to say "FIX THIS!" without giving any ideas.
Possible ideas for applicable shrine/relic powers:
- Bonus to health regeneration for sect members in a shrine's area of influence. This (and similar powers) could scale with the total number of shrines in the area vs. opposing shrines or something. - Bonus to gold drop rate, see above. - Bonus to mana regeneration, see above. - Temporary bonus (cooldowns) to experience gained in shrine's area. - Temporary bonus to belief generation from sacrificing corpses at a shrine. - Chance of generating a protective shield when a mob is slain in the shrine's area of influence. - Chance of generating a second mob identical to the one slain in the shrine's area of influence (more bashing, aww yes). - Chance of various drop commodities (blood, virtue, spirit) forming from a mob when slain. - Reduced damage taken from mobiles/bosses in the shrine's area of effect. Possibly increased if actually at a shrine. - Delayed travel to all shrines in a shrine network for a short duration, on a cooldown. VIEWSHRINE SECT generates a list, allow travel directly to those shrines via their IDs. - Reduced reserve usage in a shrine's area of effect.
These could be passive, temporary, cooldown-based, whatever. The point is that they'd be much more usable than the current iteration of relics, while still forcing people to build shrines to house multiple relics in a given area.
@Selthis -- I'll just point out that in the hands of active players alone, there is more than 50k obsidian in circulation. This doesn't even include org reserves, shops, or pocketbelts.
@Wysrias -- Some of these things already exist. Having additional shrines in the area can improve regeneration, bashing damage, and critical hits.
@Selthis -- I'll just point out that in the hands of active players alone, there is more than 50k obsidian in circulation. This doesn't even include org reserves, shops, or pocketbelts.
@Wysrias -- Some of these things already exist. Having additional shrines in the area can improve regeneration, bashing damage, and critical hits.
I knew about the bashing damage and critical hits, but not the regeneration - I'll have to test that out.
However, that doesn't address the fact that relics are largely unusable. We've all got stockpiles of relic pieces sitting around because there's really no situation where we would use them. My suggestion is to redesign relics to fit what shrines are actively being used for, which IS the PvE bonus. The PvP effects will never be used for the aforementioned reasons.
Is there any discussion happening about relic usage, or what the intent is moving forward?
@Selthis -- I'll just point out that in the hands of active players alone, there is more than 50k obsidian in circulation. This doesn't even include org reserves, shops, or pocketbelts.
There was something like 80k in the hands of active players until Ultrix got her greedy hands on my stash.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
@Selthis -- I'll just point out that in the hands of active players alone, there is more than 50k obsidian in circulation. This doesn't even include org reserves, shops, or pocketbelts.
There was something like 80k in the hands of active players until Ultrix got her greedy hands on my stash.
@Selthis -- I'll just point out that in the hands of active players alone, there is more than 50k obsidian in circulation. This doesn't even include org reserves, shops, or pocketbelts.
How, exactly, does this address the production issue that brought up? Because that is what was brought up for discussion - the production of a commodity. Not how much currently exists.
@Selthis -- I'll just point out that in the hands of active players alone, there is more than 50k obsidian in circulation. This doesn't even include org reserves, shops, or pocketbelts.
@Wysrias -- Some of these things already exist. Having additional shrines in the area can improve regeneration, bashing damage, and critical hits.
Frankly, we're on the tail end of the largest average online count of players in recent memory. So, 50k obsidian in circulation on players that have logged in in the last 30 days is kind of pointless. Because I bet a lot of those players may or may not ever log in again. I'd say the number of people on GMEMBERS of the Noctusari probably doubled in the last month. But I'd say 90% of them aren't really active regularly or will show up on gmembers dormant in 30 days for example.
I would just point out that there are other ways to obtain rock and other raw materials for refining into commodities aside from the production from a respective council or city's townes.
That does not necessarily address the 4:1 refining ratio or whether that ratio should be changed to something like 3:1, but I don't think the argument that "we have a huge surplus of X commodity but a shortage of Y commodity, so we should be able to use X commodity instead" should be a driving factor in changing what materials are used for construction of things that people want, because that surplus (or shortage) will vary from circle to circle.
I am not sure how I want to deal with the problem Khizan brought up about PvP belief gains cancelling each other out in drawn out battles, but that is something I am thinking about as well. I am semi considering removing the loss, but the problem is people will farm it.
Punish the people who obviously farm it, prohibit them from joining any Cult/Sect in the future.
It would be great if we could get beyond the fear of implementing positive changes because people might abuse them - if it becomes a serious problem then you can tell us we were wrong to want it.
Please do this... I'd already seen these posts and knew they'd probably be dear to my heart, but after sucking up a lot of deaths in our sect today, I found myself frantically bashing (which I hate in the first place) because I felt "guilty" that we'd played the game today (and died doing it). And then, someone comes and attacks me (or, in other words, breaks the incredible monotony of bashing), and, since I am a bad and I know it, all I can think is "oh **** I need to escape because if I die twice it will be even more bashing". Mind you, every single other IRE game is exactly like that all around (endless bashing as the "meaningful consequences" for daring to dabble in PK when you suck at it) - and that's what has been so refreshing about Imperian, is NOT having that system, and not having the attitude that "welp, that's just how it is".
EDIT: it's also the reason I won't touch PK with a 10 foot pole in those games, and why I'm playing this one.
I am not sure how I want to deal with the problem Khizan brought up about PvP belief gains cancelling each other out in drawn out battles, but that is something I am thinking about as well. I am semi considering removing the loss, but the problem is people will farm it.
Punish the people who obviously farm it, prohibit them from joining any Cult/Sect in the future.
It would be great if we could get beyond the fear of implementing positive changes because people might abuse them - if it becomes a serious problem then you can tell us we were wrong to want it.
Please do this... I'd already seen these posts and knew they'd probably be dear to my heart, but after sucking up a lot of deaths in our sect today, I found myself frantically bashing (which I hate in the first place) because I felt "guilty" that we'd played the game today (and died doing it). And then, someone comes and attacks me (or, in other words, breaks the incredible monotony of bashing), and, since I am a bad and I know it, all I can think is "oh **** I need to escape because if I die twice it will be even more bashing". Mind you, every single other IRE game is exactly like that all around (endless bashing as the "meaningful consequences" for daring to dabble in PK when you suck at it) - and that's what has been so refreshing about Imperian, is NOT having that system, and not having the attitude that "welp, that's just how it is".
EDIT: it's also the reason I won't touch PK with a 10 foot pole in those games, and why I'm playing this one.
I loved that Jeremy and team removed XP loss from death. It's really encouraged a much larger number of players to jump into a scrim. You're right though, having to pay to play PK by bashing is not necessarily everyone's favourite activity. I guess I could quote Khizan on you for this one, "Best way to replace lost faith is to go out and kill some people (who give you faith)."
Yeah, I hope that part made sense. Basically, me and a couple of sect mates had died a fair bit in the past day or so (mostly in statue battles, also some other skirmishes). So, I was in serious bashing mode, and I get jumped... which, I always panic when that happens anyway, but it can be exciting. It doesn't happen too often, which... once in awhile is nice, all the time wouldn't be cool for someone like me. But yeah, this time my instant reaction was "oh Jesus I just can't stomach losing even more faith right now". I hit starburst and was desperately trying to escape, rather than thinking "oh fun, I should at least try to fight or something". Spending a few hours "paying the bills" (with lots of grinding) changed my whole attitude to be more like it would be in the other games, where, unless you want to bash lots, or are pretty decent all around, you just know not to PK, ever (which is sad, because PK is probably the best part of IRE games). Mind you, Imperian still light years ahead, and if it came to it, I could just quit sects (but do we really want to chase people like me out of sects).
EDIT: just realized you may have been talking about Redemption. I never use it, always starburst (after the one forums discussion on here, partly because it's "better" and partly because Redemption seems to piss people off). I do have "Redemption" in my title, as a joke (about dying, a lot)...
Comments
It would be great if we could get beyond the fear of implementing positive changes because people might abuse them - if it becomes a serious problem then you can tell us we were wrong to want it.
was wondering how that was actually implemented. Is it '3 rooms' as in, 'you
moved 3 times to get here so this is 30%' or a 3-room 'radius'?
For example, there is a shrine in the room with the blue dot and I wanted to build a shrine in room "A", would that count as being within a 1-room 'radius' or a 4-room 'distance'? (room B either being 3 rooms away or within a 2-room radius)
E: added a picture instead because my text-map drawing is terrible. I also don't know why that first part is formatted weird.
I feel like the relics system has largely been a failure so far, because the powers are so limited in scope considering how much effort has to be put into obtaining them to begin with. For any of these powers to be useful, you need to:
a) Be able to build a shrine in the area of interest (obtain idol, spend 90% belief).
b) Obtain 1-3 relics of the type wanted, some of which are impossible to find so far.
c) Construct a shrine in the room of choice capable of holding those relics (30-90% belief, 300+ drop commodities)
d) Somehow stage a fight in exactly that room where that power would be applicable and useful.
Even if conditions A-C were ignored, condition D is enough to render the system obsolete. Think back to shrine powers and how rarely those were used - they had the benefit of not requiring relic accumulation and preservation, were available from the start, affected entire shrine networks for the more 'useful' powers, and had a radius attached for the vast majority of them. Here, we have a system that places much more extreme restrictions and requirements for their use, in a game that has a smaller playerbase than the previous shrine system dealt with, with powers that are near entirely situational (many "double edged" options), and each of which is restricted solely to the room the relic was placed in.
Even if the relics spanned across entire shrine networks, you probably would not see 90% of these powers even used. I've seen firsthand that several have cool messages, and the majority of these won't even get seen - ever! I'm really confused as to what the intention here was, because it seems like a system that would only be applicable in a game with huge player participation and contention for important sites. Shardfalls are transient and unpredictable, caravans have kind of already lost their luster; the only real conflict that could potentially come is from sects taking advantage of PvE bonuses for highly frequented areas, and even then, shrine powers don't matter!
I think, moving forward with this kind of system, relics as a whole need to be completely re-evaluated. The powers range from useless to obscene and are so heavily restricted that it's impossible to imagine scenarios where you'd even get to try them out. Shrine powers should relate to the scope in which shrines are actually applicable: networks in highly frequented areas. The shrine defile/sanctify system is equally poorly conceptualized as it can only switch between a stalemate or a 20+ hour battle of attrition where you're really just hoping nobody from that sect notices/logs on. The powers aren't really applicable there either as a result.
If the relic system is going to be kept, the powers themselves need to be accessible and relevant. Redesigning how shrine conflict works and applying relics in that situation, and perhaps to the PvE benefits as those are largely what are driving sects to build shrines, is probably the best course of action in my opinion.
Possible ideas for applicable shrine/relic powers:
- Bonus to health regeneration for sect members in a shrine's area of influence. This (and similar powers) could scale with the total number of shrines in the area vs. opposing shrines or something.
- Bonus to gold drop rate, see above.
- Bonus to mana regeneration, see above.
- Temporary bonus (cooldowns) to experience gained in shrine's area.
- Temporary bonus to belief generation from sacrificing corpses at a shrine.
- Chance of generating a protective shield when a mob is slain in the shrine's area of influence.
- Chance of generating a second mob identical to the one slain in the shrine's area of influence (more bashing, aww yes).
- Chance of various drop commodities (blood, virtue, spirit) forming from a mob when slain.
- Reduced damage taken from mobiles/bosses in the shrine's area of effect. Possibly increased if actually at a shrine.
- Delayed travel to all shrines in a shrine network for a short duration, on a cooldown. VIEWSHRINE SECT generates a list, allow travel directly to those shrines via their IDs.
- Reduced reserve usage in a shrine's area of effect.
These could be passive, temporary, cooldown-based, whatever. The point is that they'd be much more usable than the current iteration of relics, while still forcing people to build shrines to house multiple relics in a given area.
However, that doesn't address the fact that relics are largely unusable. We've all got stockpiles of relic pieces sitting around because there's really no situation where we would use them. My suggestion is to redesign relics to fit what shrines are actively being used for, which IS the PvE bonus. The PvP effects will never be used for the aforementioned reasons.
Is there any discussion happening about relic usage, or what the intent is moving forward?
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Mage crystals use glass.