My thought was that people would flood and unflood (with the artifact, yes) to our side's advantage based on what was going on, because I feel like we have guys who are every inch capable of doing that sort of thing. Maybe the balance or EQ is absolutely huge? I never did get the ring, so maybe that's part of it?
My thought was that people would flood and unflood (with the artifact, yes) to our side's advantage based on what was going on, because I feel like we have guys who are every inch capable of doing that sort of thing. Maybe the balance or EQ is absolutely huge? I never did get the ring, so maybe that's part of it?
Slightly off topic (I am a terrible moderator):
During duels in arenas that have the Artifact Rental ability purchased, you can rent artifacts to experiment with (among other things) their balance/equilibrium costs. The Coliseum and two city arenas have that option available at the moment. If yours does not, and you think it should, you can have your cityleaders purchase it for two million gold by filing an orgrequest or contacting Jeremy.
My thought was that people would flood and unflood (with the artifact, yes) to our side's advantage based on what was going on, because I feel like we have guys who are every inch capable of doing that sort of thing. Maybe the balance or EQ is absolutely huge? I never did get the ring, so maybe that's part of it?
The problem with strategically flooding/unflooding a room is that it requires a lot of situational awareness. The people who have that kind of situational awareness are more likely going to be beating on other people with sharp, stabby things to get the kill count, rather than waste the bal/eq on stuff that doesn't do damage.
My thought was that people would flood and unflood (with the artifact, yes) to our side's advantage based on what was going on, because I feel like we have guys who are every inch capable of doing that sort of thing. Maybe the balance or EQ is absolutely huge? I never did get the ring, so maybe that's part of it?
The problem with strategically flooding/unflooding a room is that it requires a lot of situational awareness. The people who have that kind of situational awareness are more likely going to be beating on other people with sharp, stabby things to get the kill count, rather than waste the bal/eq on stuff that doesn't do damage.
Also, when 50% of the AMers also fighting in the room have flippy boots, flood is likely not as fun.
Yeah, especially not Septus and Khizan (for Ultrix).
How do the circles that do have access to flood through regular skills generally apply it, and what kind of player do they generally have taking care of it? Or maybe they don't use it much either?
At this point it's pointless to flood the zerg train because all of them pilg out now. Insert spam comment about "Why does pilgrimage/deliver go through holyground but empress does not?"
Pilging is something that... we seem to be making available more often now, but until recently, I'd completely given up on it outside the actual fight room. Not sure if that will continue to be the case or if having pilg up as an escape/rally point isn't generally something we can maintain. It definitely seems to be unworkable when someone uses that sceptre thing, for example.
The reasons I don't bother with flood in teams is pretty simple.
(1) If stopping someone from running is necessary, I have engage. This ability is hands down the best anti run ability in the game and is comboable. With piety on top I'm pretty content with my odds vs theirs.
(2): Most of the people who could actually get away semi reliably have mounts, which bypasses flood.
The one situation I'll still flood in groups is vs someone with boots. Otherwise engage/piety is just hands down superior.
1. If people are going to pay 1500 credits to escape from combat, then 800 credits (flood ring) to stop them is a cheap price. (As much as I hate flip-boots).
2. Pilgrimage is amazing, and I'm glad AM doesn't use it offensively. Imagine us rapid-reinforcing without using balance of already present players in the 'kill' room.
3. I think demonic only has one profession with flood iirc (?defiler), and no one really uses it.
4. Starburst: This effect compounds number bias.
1 v 2 -> 2 v 4
2 v 4 -> 4 v 8
4 v 10 -> 8 v 20
Can we please address this.
5. Can we please not have artifacts that alter curing balances.
6. Can we please reduce the bonus from dartsheath artifact rather than changing twinshot to be affected by rebounding.
7. Why is prone deadeyes ok? #pleaseexplain
8. Can someone confirm that redemption no longer refreshes balance when triggered?
9. Can we get a small balance cost on Predation's Clinging, thanks.
E: Can I get my Torc to show me when it has a charge active?
Is it just not worth it to use as a mitigation to that sludge thing, or to make rune users cry? Not sure if there are other things like that that can be "shut down" by someone flooding, or if it's just totally not worth it to do that. I've been imbibing their runes lately for example, which has a long EQ. Maybe this is woefully inefficient and I shouldn't bother in groups (and maybe not alone)? I was more wondering about those kind of things (keeping teammates alive), than as a hindrance from leaving.
Flood is one of those things I drop to block my team from getting vortexed (because they don't block) or when I'm trying to stop someone from flipping out. Like The queen of blades said, it's very situational.
I honestly don't think prone deadeyes is a massive issue.
Its definitely an outlier in that nothing else really works that way, but it doesn't actually change much. Its not really as if you're going to strategically force a diab prone to slow their offense, since the only classes that can reliably do this are limb based ones, at which point if you're proning them for any amount of time you're either going for your kill or just stalling your own offense.
I mean, it'd make sense to bring it in line, but it wouldn't actually address any present issues I think.
Honestly, the ground runes nowadays are pretty 'eh'. You guys roll in large enough numbers that the ticks from uruz (lightning bolt) aren't going to be end of the world. You're better off tacking on some unnecessarily high damage claymore dsls with cleanse/flare. If they wanted to, the sketch eq < imbibe eq and they could stalemate you. They don't do that, but it's possible. You should only imbibe the leech rune because that's a tacky way to fight and whoever did it should be shamed.
In teams, sludge is a waste of equilibrium. 20 people have told Aakrin this and he'd be better off hitting you for ludicrous amounts of damage, but whatever. Sludge is only a problem if you're running and...why are you running?
This is not how it works, because the numbers do not scale like that. There is a massive difference between a 1v2/2v4 and 2v4/4v8 because the important factor in a fight is the numbers at the point of impact. This is because the actual fight isn't really a 4v8. It's actually two separate fights. For example, it might be these two fights: "Cassius, Baasche, Aakrin, Pellerin, Seraphyne, Alvetta, Airelle, Aislygn against Khizan(8v1)" and "Khizan, Ultrix, Septus, Jules against Baasche(4v1)".
What happens in that situation is that the 8v1 ends quickly and messily because the numerical advantage at the point of impact is overwhelming if the larger side has any kind of decent coordination. Then you get a 8v1/3v1 pair that ends in much the same way for much the same reason. The numerical advantage here is so overwhelming that player skill and even artifacts are sort of meaningless. Even Eldreth doesn't stand and keep swinging in the face of an 8 man offense.
The smaller 2v4 fight, however, breaks down into a 4v1 and a 2v1, and the 4v1 is much more survivable, especially if you have artifacts and especially if your side has a skill advantage.
Starburst is more akin to doubling health, not doubling your numbers(except for your health numbers, it's a lot like doubling that).
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Ground runes aren't "eh". Uruz is 6% of health every 6 seconds for all allies, AFAIK, and doesn't contribute towards max racial regen. Mount fly isn't bugged anymore and lagul is a fantastic way to hold in the handful of combatants that spam fly when they're dying. Laguz makes engage and choke almost impossible to escape(but is replaced by druid rubble). Nairat enables transfix and makes holding single targets with rakshas/flippers much easier. Totem is great for very obvious reasons. All of these things are disabled when someone floods. That's why WE don't use flood often. It prevents us from prepping rooms properly and only has benefits for the 2s until one of AM parts(which most of you can do). These benefits are limited. Whirlwind is a terrible skill. As I've mentioned before, a measly 20% faith makes a flipper immune to flood until they log out, so it's menial to get past.
As for you guys using it. The majority of Magick that escape from rooms during combat do so with other skills that flood won't impact. I don't think you'd get much use from it really.
I think Khizan is more accurate on his value of starburst skills. It's not the same as fighting against double the numbers, since it's not duplicating claymore damage, just extending how long it lasts. I don't think removing it would make team combat with vast numbers differences much more even, since as much as it adds a little longevity to claymores, it makes Risca and Eldreth last MUCH longer and lets them escape generally by clearing their hinders all at once. I don't really mind it much myself.
Edit: I should mention. Unlike Vault(warding) which allows you vault out of the room making use of your mount's waterwalking(even though the mount is left behind), Leap doesn't work the same and doesn't treat you as having waterwalking unless you actually have a phial or the ritual up.
You and Ahkan have both said that, but how often do I actually see rituals in use during combat? Almost never. I see the occasional Sanctuary and Aura, but I've not seen anyone but Ultrix use either of those in ages. Are all these serious pkers using favours instead? You can fill out the favours tree entirely and still have room for 2 in Mobility AND have another point left over. And I wouldn't call it "burning". 20% faith for all your escape skills(evade, flip, vault, leap, dash, etc) to magically work in all water rooms is a pretty potent thing in the situations where it works.
I think the waterwalking ritual is a decent cost for the point/duration/faith % investment if you have flip boots or a non-mount leave skill that is negated by flood (and I am speaking as one who can part), and as a lot of people have an extra point or two from perks, you have plenty of points left to play with after the common benevolence/sanctuary base (unless you go with protection I guess..I have a love/hate relationship with protection)
“We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
Now I'm torn again about the runes (and I'd wanted to ask about Nairat in particular and Dicene has brought it up). He's also mentioned a couple of other apparently powerful runes. The bottom line is that my side simply doesn't flood, ever, and I'm certainly not going to go get a ring and start cowboying with flood, but I'm trying to understand if/why that really makes sense.
The bottom line is that my side simply doesn't flood, ever, and I'm certainly not going to go get a ring and start cowboying with flood, but I'm trying to understand if/why that really makes sense.
The "why" was pretty much explained already though.
1. No AM class has access to the skill, so the only way for an AMer to be able to flood is to buy an 800 credit artifact. 99% of the people will not spend that kind of money for that kind of artifact. There are plenty of other, better, artifacts to get before you drop 800 credits on a flood ring.
2. The people who do have the artifact currently (i.e., Khizan) will not spend the time to flood the room to keep someone with flipboots from escaping because there are plenty of other profession skills that do just as good of a job. Engage/piety/block for templars, in particular. If you're really desperate, joust them repeatedly. Keep in mind that flooding the room is somewhat useless in stopping a flipbooter unless you *also* remember to wall and block exits, because frontflip bypasses flood.
3. Flooding a room can often be detrimental to the rest of your team, for various reasons.
2. The people who do have the artifact currently (i.e., Khizan) will not spend the time to flood the room to keep someone with flipboots from escaping because he also wants to use his flipboots to escape.
I fixed that for you.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
- Aura <-- With your fondness for spam barrier. You can understand why this is awesome. 2/9
- Bounty
- Sanctuary <--- This lets me deny an entire armada of zerg a room. This is >>>> waterwalking. 4/9
- Grace
Pillar Rituals:
- Protection Pillar <--- I will forever be upset at Wysrias. This tree blows.
- Travel Pillar
- Pestilence Pillar
- Destruction Pillar
- Holding Pillar
Favours Rituals:
- Fortune Favour
- Stealth Favour
- Benevolence Favour <-- You went change for +1 to a random stat. How about +1 to all stats. Yeah. 6/9
- Alertness Favour
- Protection Favour <--Tbh, I think this vastly outweighs anything I can pick up anywhere else right now. 10/9
Mobility Rituals:
- Altartravel <--Why?
- Waterwalking <-- I still haven't seen anyone invest in this. (because the times I need this are near 1/1000)
- Burrowing
- Freedom
- Bull's Rush
Your entire WORST CASE SCENARIO is predicated on the fact that your team does its job. Surprise, they don't! It's not specific to you, the only team that blocks is AM and that's because of Cordilia using Fazlee's system (so it's entirely Fazlee) and Septus. Most people never wall. People can flood, sure, but why waste my flip when I can just walk out of the room on a pony named Babou? My flippy boots never come into play because you don't block, wall, engage (Pellerin engages like a beast). If someone (Khizan, Eldreth, or I) are flipped, we're probably flipping over a wall to gain separation from you (the wall blocks you more than it blocks us) and then we can do shenanigans from range or split your team. Enter situational awareness.
*Awesome tip: (Waterwalking phials and defiler provide water walk, refunding me a sweet 2 ritual points for protection (huzzah!)
*Devotioners and wytchen can part
@Jules@Baasche Runes are still lackluster because you can only have 2.
Uruz: When you're taking 300-500 damage a round, Uruz isn't exactly bringing home the bacon. Most people aren't going to have max regen + uruz. Nairat: You'd be better off dsl/sowulu. You transfixed one dude for 3 seconds. Meanwhile his 4-8 friends just killed 2 of yours. (What's your obsession with newb train web spam?)
Laguz: Laguz is the booommmbbbbb. You can do this with rubble and save yourself a rune. (also, flippy boots say what. FLIPPY BOOOOOOTS)
Lagul: Sort of a waste here bruh. Tentacle. Get one. Use it. AM splits their own team spamming fly. Good for blocking track pets but only if you know they're coming. Nuathiz: Should be ashamed of yourself.
Also, you can't drop 2 runes most of the time because you have to leave room for ansuz which is way more important than any of the above. So, runes are still 'eh' and you'll get more mileage out of using nairat well and dsl/sowulu. Jules, I think you're better off hitting Baasche for 150-200 damage because he tanks like a wet napkin and then he uses prismatic barrier, which effectively takes him out of the fight anyways.
I hear you there (Ultrix), but well, Ahkan (before and with his current ninja post) has addressed the question I'm actually asking, which is not about flood as a hindrance, but as a way to kill runes, or sludge, or perhaps other "preps" from an enemy. Ahkan is saying it's not worth it. Then Dicene is saying his side doesn't do it because it *would* kill all of their prep (runes). He's also saying it's probably not worthwhile, but in terms of hindrance. Basically, if no one had posted after Ahkan I probably would just accept that, but based on what Dicene said (and Eldreth) about the runes/flood/waterwalking I feel like it's not open and shut yet.
EDIT: except now I guess it is (with new ninja post)
I also have a question about blocking, since it came up (for anyone, but especially people on my side, of course). I usually ask if I should be blocking and then do what I'm told. Ideally, would I just always block and have an auto thingy that quickly unblocked if one of my allies tried to leave (again, ideally, I'm not there), then block again once they successfully left? Then again, so many people don't have any sort of message when they leave anyway, so maybe that wouldn't work?
-Stops (most) peasants from running (leap, backflip, project, probably effing blink trump this) (it's important to mention leap because hypocrisy)
-It stops beckon/vortex. Double block 100% blocks beckon. (this is important @Theophilus)
Honestly, if there's exits to the room you should feel free to block one of them. If you want, you can pull exits from gmcp and pick one at random. Or if you're clever you'll block the room they use to run home.
@Ahkan You simply don't have any idea what you're talking about. If you were willing to get into team fights without Demonic having superior numbers, maybe you would, but the only time I've even seen you in the same room as a fight(love that dopplespam!) in months was when I locked and melted you in a 1v2 with you and Wysrias both in the room pounding me full force. Even when you are in a room with the fight, the moment your first man goes down you mash that flip button hard, so it's somehow surprising to me when I see you showcasing an ignorance of which flip is blocked by which mechanic. =( Stupid personal attacks aside...
1.) I didn't even mention Nauthiz because it is useless in real combat. It takes several minutes for the hunger to hit hard enough to have any impact. 2.) Uruz isn't JUST for making the primary target last longer. It also counters room wide damage ticks meaning my allies have room to sip mana instead to keep from getting cath'd or absolved since Magick classes leak mana from their pores. That said, when you're doing your best to tank(self-healing skills, shard heals, shield spam, barrier spam) that 6% tick every 6 seconds can literally save your life for another dsl or two, and every little bit helps.
3.) Laguz is replaced well by rubble, aye. Throw statue(with the assemble item) however has a terribly short life, and doesn't even always hit every exit on the first go. I use it sometimes, but it doesn't tend to really do anything since the rubble is gone before it makes much of a difference.
4.) Lagul means no bal/eq spent tentacling, no missing the curing that goes on before the target gets tentacled, and it prevents tracking in. It might even prevent longtoss since that's meant to only work on outdoors rooms. It's superior in every way.
5.) Your reasoning that two ritual points can't be afforded for waterwalking is based on having useful other rituals to spend the points on. Some people are stuck with less useful ritual sets. On top of that, 99.9% of fighters do not use rituals AT ALL in combat, besides the ones they had up prior for bashing. If you do, the ones you are ACTUALLY USING cost enough that you're limited to just a few of those. No, you don't get to have every single ritual you want, but if you want the massive boon that is waterwalking until logout, 2 points isn't hard to find room for. 6.) I mentioned using Nairat for specific single-target purposes. Like securing a kill against someone you know will hit prismatic or twist out. Transfix is 5s(with maybe a little rng around it) and has a 1s+ writhe time. It allows impaling a standing target for another few seconds of holding. If they're still impaled when you get balance back, disembowel is a straight 40% of their max health. These things make it extremely useful for finishing people like Ultrix, Khizan, and Septus, that are otherwise harder to finish off.
7.) Ansuz doesn't require/use a ground rune slot. If you don't know how something works, don't try to 1-up people who do.
I still don't think flood would be worth it on your side, because the benefits don't seem to outweight the disadvantages. As everyone has mentioned, you have 1.5 million other holding methods. It's double-edged unlike the rest of your holding kit. If you do decide to buy the ring for some reason and want to try it to see how it actually works out, make sure you tell your allies so they know they won't be able to backflip or evade or whatever.
As far as block, I think my favorite way to do it is to just have a toggle alias for it and to leave it off until you're in a room you're expecting a fight in. If you're in a team with a bunch of people that can flip, however, probably don't even need to do that since they can bypass it if need be. Again. If you feel like trying it when in team situations, it helps to announce it.
Dicene my big question was about how much I could ruin the enemy's offense/prep more than anything, and a very big part of the picture I didn't understand was that flood doesn't wash away runes that are already in the room.
Dicene my big question was about how much I could ruin the enemy's offense/prep more than anything, and a very big part of the picture I didn't understand was that flood doesn't wash away runes that are already in the room.
To be clear, flood will prevent someone from sketching a new rune in the room, but it will not cancel out or wash away any runes that exist in the room.
But, take a step back and think about that for a minute. If you know that RG/Wytch setups require them to be in-room for max benefit, you would be better off trying to beckon them into your (rune-free) room, rather than go to their room (which will likely have totem in it as well, as well as some other horrible thing like that hunter-o-basilisk). So you might say, hey, it makes sense to beckon them into our room. Great! Just remember, unless the people have waterwalking or are mounted, if you were to flood your own room a beckon would not work. So it doesn't make sense to flood your own (rune-free) room, either, at least not initially.
Flood does not wash away runes, no. You do, however, have IMBIBE. Problem is, if I've heard right, the eq cost is large. And you might not be able to IMBIBE RUNE while dsling, not really sure. RG has access to Cube Sigil, which gives them an in-room part, after which that RG can re-rune(sketching taking between 1.5-5s each rune depending on the rune type and if you're off-bal when you sketch). Meaning, it's generally easy for Magick to counter.
Comments
The reasons I don't bother with flood in teams is pretty simple.
(1) If stopping someone from running is necessary, I have engage. This ability is hands down the best anti run ability in the game and is comboable. With piety on top I'm pretty content with my odds vs theirs.
(2): Most of the people who could actually get away semi reliably have mounts, which bypasses flood.
The one situation I'll still flood in groups is vs someone with boots. Otherwise engage/piety is just hands down superior.
I honestly don't think prone deadeyes is a massive issue.
Its definitely an outlier in that nothing else really works that way, but it doesn't actually change much. Its not really as if you're going to strategically force a diab prone to slow their offense, since the only classes that can reliably do this are limb based ones, at which point if you're proning them for any amount of time you're either going for your kill or just stalling your own offense.
I mean, it'd make sense to bring it in line, but it wouldn't actually address any present issues I think.
Honestly, the ground runes nowadays are pretty 'eh'. You guys roll in large enough numbers that the ticks from uruz (lightning bolt) aren't going to be end of the world. You're better off tacking on some unnecessarily high damage claymore dsls with cleanse/flare. If they wanted to, the sketch eq < imbibe eq and they could stalemate you. They don't do that, but it's possible. You should only imbibe the leech rune because that's a tacky way to fight and whoever did it should be shamed.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
As for you guys using it. The majority of Magick that escape from rooms during combat do so with other skills that flood won't impact. I don't think you'd get much use from it really.
I think Khizan is more accurate on his value of starburst skills. It's not the same as fighting against double the numbers, since it's not duplicating claymore damage, just extending how long it lasts. I don't think removing it would make team combat with vast numbers differences much more even, since as much as it adds a little longevity to claymores, it makes Risca and Eldreth last MUCH longer and lets them escape generally by clearing their hinders all at once. I don't really mind it much myself.
Well, let's be reallistic there.
I'd be pretty amazed if anyone serious about pk can justify burning two ritual points on the mobility ritual group.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Runes are still lackluster because you can only have 2.
Uruz: When you're taking 300-500 damage a round, Uruz isn't exactly bringing home the bacon. Most people aren't going to have max regen + uruz.
Nairat: You'd be better off dsl/sowulu. You transfixed one dude for 3 seconds. Meanwhile his 4-8 friends just killed 2 of yours. (What's your obsession with newb train web spam?)
Nuathiz: Should be ashamed of yourself.
Also, you can't drop 2 runes most of the time because you have to leave room for ansuz which is way more important than any of the above. So, runes are still 'eh' and you'll get more mileage out of using nairat well and dsl/sowulu. Jules, I think you're better off hitting Baasche for 150-200 damage because he tanks like a wet napkin and then he uses prismatic barrier, which effectively takes him out of the fight anyways.
Honestly, if there's exits to the room you should feel free to block one of them. If you want, you can pull exits from gmcp and pick one at random. Or if you're clever you'll block the room they use to run home.
2.) Uruz isn't JUST for making the primary target last longer. It also counters room wide damage ticks meaning my allies have room to sip mana instead to keep from getting cath'd or absolved since Magick classes leak mana from their pores. That said, when you're doing your best to tank(self-healing skills, shard heals, shield spam, barrier spam) that 6% tick every 6 seconds can literally save your life for another dsl or two, and every little bit helps.
6.) I mentioned using Nairat for specific single-target purposes. Like securing a kill against someone you know will hit prismatic or twist out. Transfix is 5s(with maybe a little rng around it) and has a 1s+ writhe time. It allows impaling a standing target for another few seconds of holding. If they're still impaled when you get balance back, disembowel is a straight 40% of their max health. These things make it extremely useful for finishing people like Ultrix, Khizan, and Septus, that are otherwise harder to finish off.
@Jules
As far as block, I think my favorite way to do it is to just have a toggle alias for it and to leave it off until you're in a room you're expecting a fight in. If you're in a team with a bunch of people that can flip, however, probably don't even need to do that since they can bypass it if need be. Again. If you feel like trying it when in team situations, it helps to announce it.