Split discussion: Changes to Redemption

Eoghan

This discussion was created from comments split from: Improving Imperian.

Celestine

ANNOUNCE NEWS #2840

Date: 9/26/2014 at 19:15

From: Garryn

To  : Everyone

Subj: Various changes and fixes

- Automatic death revival effects (starburst, combust, redemption, torc of the dead) are now on a shared 30 second cooldown; if any of these is triggered, no other will fire during the next 30 seconds

- Redemption (Devotion) now costs 1500 devotion both to put up and to be triggered

- The Hecate mark (Shamanism) now informs the caster what it will hit with, for easier use

- Added missing room messages to Care (Fayth) and affliction healing of Bliss (Devotion)

- The 'map' command should no longer interrupt most channels

- Weaving (Sabotage) no longer reduces unblockable damage

- Added reflection checks to Hunter attacks that were missing them

- Removed the obsolete actinium effect from the formaldehyde and psilocybin lists

For all of the Templars and Priests that had redemption up BEFORE this change came out, can you create something to allow us to drop it - if we wish to not be penalized?

Also, are you able to tell us what the rationale was for making it have a cost for putting up and for firing? Previously, after the last classlead change, it was set up such that putting up the defense did not cost any devotion, but having it fire cost devotion. Now, it is a cost on both ends and that seems a bit excessive.

Garryn

It was a bug. The new redemption was meant to have the cost on both usage and on triggering, to balance out the fact that it can potentially be used more frequently now.

Ultrix

Garryn said:

It was a bug. The new redemption was meant to have the cost on both usage and on triggering, to balance out the fact that it can potentially be used more frequently now.

If it was previously a bug, why wouldn't the answer be to fix the bug with the old cost, rather than raise the associated cost with it with the bug fix? It seems excessive to raise it without even knowing whether the 1000 cost to put up and to fire would be sufficient to address the criticisms about redemption, since that scenario never existed in game. 

To be clear, my comment isn't (necessarily) regarding the bump from 1000 to 1500 in cost (because I haven't tested it yet with the other skills to see if that number is too high), but rather, is directed to the process by which the fix/adjustment was arrived at.

Garryn

I've considered that, but the number seemed a bit too low, as the goal was to make the cost actually matter (ie, you need to be more careful about devotion usage if you want redemption to fire), which the original value didn't really accomplish. If the cost proves too steep now, we'll tweak it further.

Cassius

The cost to put up should never really be an issue unless you are trying to put it up immediately after dieing(x2) and rushing back to battle. But there are alternatives (starburst, etc.).

Khizan

Garryn said:

I've considered that, but the number seemed a bit too low, as the goal was to make the cost actually matter (ie, you need to be more careful about devotion usage if you want redemption to fire), which the original value didn't really accomplish. If the cost proves too steep now, we'll tweak it further.

The cost-on-activation is too much. Rites rdeuce max devotion down to 1720, ensuring that any use of devotion inside of a fight will prevent redemption from firing. 

This change has basically relegated Redemption down to a bashing skill, because that's the only reasonable situation in which it can work.

Ahkan

Whatever, dude. Get in line.

-Bellow

-Incinerate

-Entire defiler class

*edit: Made sure the order was chronological.

Ultrix

Khizan said:

Garryn said:

I've considered that, but the number seemed a bit too low, as the goal was to make the cost actually matter (ie, you need to be more careful about devotion usage if you want redemption to fire), which the original value didn't really accomplish. If the cost proves too steep now, we'll tweak it further.

The cost-on-activation is too much. Rites rdeuce max devotion down to 1720, ensuring that any use of devotion inside of a fight will prevent redemption from firing. 

This change has basically relegated Redemption down to a bashing skill, because that's the only reasonable situation in which it can work.

So in thinking about this more, here are a few thoughts/comments/rants/whatevers:

- The 1500 in cost for putting it up: One issue I see is that with this kind of cost is that you can't put redemption up (say, if you forgot to put up the defense) when you're heading out with your team to go to a shardfall or whatever, and be able to use any devotion skills for the first ~2 minutes of the fight (assuming you even last that long. Most fights don't last for more than a few minutes, tops). Redemption wouldn't even fire in that window anyway (since you've burned all your devotion putting it up), and it will take you 112.5 seconds (200 devo every 15 seconds) to regenerate just the 1500 devotion needed for redemption to fire, so basically you've crippled yourself to where you can't use any devotion skills to fight, and your redemption wouldn't fire.

- The 1500 in cost for it to fire: Putting aside the defense-on cost, I think the fire-on cost is too high. Base devotion is 2000, and with rites, that number drops to 1720 (40 per rite). Assuming that I do absolutely nothing else by way of my devotion skillset (e.g., dsl with flare, penance, whatever) and simply have redemption fire, I'm down to 220 devotion.  That's not even enough devotion to pilg out, because that costs 500. Yes, the numbers change slightly if you have beads, but I don't think the answer is to tell everyone that they need to go get a 300-credit artifact in order to be able to even use their trans devotion skill.  By raising the cost to 1500 to fire, that has effectively created a situation where redemption will -never- fire for anyone without the use of beads in a fight.

Personally, I think the 30-second cooldown and cannot-stack-with-starburst limitation would have been sufficient, but that's just my (lowly) opinion.

Iniar

Oh my god, it's like I have to play with 100% hp.

(sorry)

((but I really hate your skill))

Ahkan

Let's be honest her, kids. Maybe 3-4 years of rampant, unmitigated, and unnecessary classleads have finally risen up to bite you in your holier than thou (Pun!) ****.

Templars and clerics enjoy:

-The entire top tier of armor

-Toughness (Toughness is assigned in lieu of armor)

-Spiritshields (despite arguments to the contrary)

-Fitness (for when you get locked)

-Active healing (hp, mana, affs)

-Passive healing (hp, mana, affs) (cleric gets a double dose)

They are two of the tankiest classes in the game. Thanks to redesigns and bad classleads, they're two of the most potent and versatile offensive classes in the game. If we were really honest with ourselves and willing to actually do our jobs for game balance; we would step back and say, "This class doesn't need redemption." Sadly, we don't delete things around here, because we're bad. Since we don't delete the skill that you obviously don't need, you're stuck occupying a trans skill slot with a bashing starburst. What class gets a free starburst? (No one). I'm 100% fine with "Do I fight with super tanky, health mana healing, demon summoning fiery rites of doom that I can run when necessary" or do I not die once. Forcing this decision is pretty solid in my book. 

You shouldn't be a tanky nuke bot with 9 lives.

*edit
After talking to Ultrix, devotioners need a 'redemption off' button 

Iniar

Here we go:

Problem:

* Stem: Bloodsworn can be used to essentially grant a player +20% health .. the constitution equivalent of which would be in the region of +2 con (my Girdle of Titans grants me +15% hp)... However this boon is granted worldwide, meaning one half of the partnership can simply idle in a safe zone and grant the other player a free 20% health boost.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Decision:

It's almost +4 con, actually, not +2 con. Solution 1.

Math:

100% (redemption) / 20% (bloodsworn) = 5 (factor). 5 * +4 con (bonus) = +20 con.

+20 con / +3 con ~= 6.6 (factor).

6.6 * 2000 (credits) = 13,333

13,333 * 0.30 = USD 4,000

Hello!

Kryss

These changes are long overdue. As far as I'm concerned, all the 'extra life' mechanics are silly. A bashing starburst (as its been put) is actually pretty good for a trans skill when compared to some others, especially for a secondary skillset. It's kinda hard to empathise with Devotion users because those skills are just so good, you really don't need to have your cake and eat it too.

Gabriel

What else is cake good for???

Iniar

You know what I'd really like to see:

The classlead for when Transmogrify got put to bed.

Khizan

A 'bashing starburst' is crap for a transcendent skill because a general purpose starburst is a Gifted skill.

Iniar said:

You know what I'd really like to see:

The classlead for when Transmogrify got put to bed.

Transmog took 20% sanguis and sanguis could be replenished by butchering mobiles or players(that other players could farm for you. It was not unusual to transmog a Noctusari 3-4 times in the course of one fight and then turn around and end up having to do it three more times.

On the other hand, Devotion couldn't be regenerated at all outside the Rite of Prayer and Redemption took so much devotion that putting redemption up after a fight was basically deciding that you didn't really want to use rites today after all. You'd put it up before you logged off or before a long string of planned not-fighting, but you wouldn't just put it back up after every time you died because it would eat all your resources.

That's neglecting the badmog/remogging aspects of transmog, of course, but the old incarnation of transmog was a problem for basically the same reasons that the current version of redemption was a problem before this recent nerf.

Ahkan

A tattoo without a tattoo slot  (inherently 0 cost for eternity) is not crap.

Khizan

You still need to reserve a tattoo slot for a PvP-starburst so it's not actually saving you a slot. And if you don't plan to use a PvP starburst, you're an awful teammate and you need to start.

Iniar

To do a side by side comparison, see AB CURSES for a really bad skillset. Oh wait, that's AB CURSES FULL.

Trotting out my obnoxiousness, to cut through all the smoke and mirrors:

You know who really copped the biggest real monetary loss in this mechanical kerfuffle? Me.

Ahkan

But the starburst has a substantial cost! You're denying yourself another tattoo.

II like that it forces a decision between ultimate-showdown and redemption. Clerics and Templars don't need every rite rolling 24/7 to be functional. You can't say the way it  functioned in a manner that was conducive to an enjoyable match up.

Tbh, I think this just demonstrates the fact that current devotion doesn't fit into the resource mechanic you've shoe horned it into.

Khizan

Once you hit 12 tattoos the cost of a tattoo slot is not a substantial one, especially not for classes that don't need a shield tattoo.

Iniar

Isn't 12 tattoo slots a transcendent thing?

Khizan

Yes, but even once you hit 9 slots at ~Gifted you can still easily afford a starburst.  

Also, you'd need a starburst for PvP anyways; this means that redemption is only a free tattoo slot if you don't care about PvP at all and just want to bash, and if that's the case you have lots of free tattoo slots because you don't need pvp specific tattoos like tentacle/hammer/etc.

Ahkan

The fact you -need- a starburst for pvp is a myth.

Kryss

You don't need one, it's a luxury. And a silly mechanic all round but whatever.

Mathiaus

Many people will disagree, but I think the health malus that we get for dying should apply to starburst/combustion too when slain by PvP.

Ahkan

That wouldn't really accomplish anything. As long as I pop back with my offense still in play, I'm going to make the most of it. You're never really going to block this feature. How useful this is depends on the person.

Kalcer starbursts and he'll likely die again. Eldreth starbursts and you likely just upset him.

Menoch

Is there any argument against templar and priest being, both in team and 1v1, the strongest pk profs in game?

ITT: Points brought up as to why over the top offense and defense on both devotion professions requires nothing more than the starburst available to the entire game to still have that over the top offense and defense, and all that being summarily ignored in favor of look at this detraction of how bad starburst is for a trans skill.

The cost/benefit is actually super good with only a month or two of elite under your belt and bashing credits even to aspect, but I'm super cool with switching Healing rite and Redemption's places on AB DEVOTION RANKS.

Kalcer

Ahkan said:

Kalcer starbursts and he'll likely die again. Eldreth starbursts and you likely just upset him.

Thats really the only reason I've got a starburst, because I explode when focused..

Eldreth

Does a priest or templar loses anything meaningful upon death (I think someone asked earlier in thread but don't remember seeing an answer)? And does it vary if the "death" is redempted or starbursted? I know druids lose golem (not a big deal) and roots (sort of a big deal), and some demonic classes are screwed going into Round 2. Just curious. 

Septus

Seraph/rites.

Seraph is a bigger deal usually because it also drops empathy I believe, but I'd not say they're worse off than a lot of other classes that starburst. Outrider, defiler(?), diab, hunter?

You don't lose either if you redemption rather than starburst/combust/etc.