Wardancers are going to get attention after the smithing change just like every other class. If it were me I'd be much more inclined to wait and smile and get Garryn's full attention on making changes, rather than throw an intensive chore among a pile of other changes for everyone else.
You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
I feel like problems could have been avoided. Oh well. 3 v 1, maximum cheese turned up and still not much to be done here. We left the field to the sole victor. Thank you monks.
You missed the point. What am I supposed to do when he's sitting in deliverance? Twiddle my thumbs. There's no counter. Even prismatic pre-beta had a counter. Even numbness has a break-point of 167% max hp. Even Redemption has a point of failure where it won't fire. Deliverance? Just sit there and wait, Iniar. Please, take a seat.
I don't die to deliverance except when it lags, or I get unlucky with timing, that's just a roll of the dice.
Also, because it may not be clear, there are two separate issues: (1) Banish having no counter except a profession-locked one, and (2) Deliverance having no counter except twiddling thumbs.
Oh yeah, when I strum lyre I expect to kill everyone who hits my barrier.
With his logic, I expect to have anyone who spams my prismatic barrier with five or more hits to DIE INSTANTLY. (AM and magic ks entire party would vanish in a heart beat.)
You missed the point. What am I supposed to do when he's sitting in deliverance? Twiddle my thumbs. There's no counter. Even prismatic pre-beta had a counter. Even numbness has a break-point of 167% max hp. Even Redemption has a point of failure where it won't fire. Deliverance? Just sit there and wait, Iniar. Please, take a seat.
I don't die to deliverance except when it lags, or I get unlucky with timing, that's just a roll of the dice.
Also, because it may not be clear, there are two separate issues: (1) Banish having no counter except a profession-locked one, and (2) Deliverance having no counter except twiddling thumbs.
One, if he's using Deliverance, he's not curing. Passives still hit him and afflict him and passives don't trigger deliverance, only active attacks.
Second, you actually have retaliation in the form of ranged attacks. Archery, throw star, ranged doppleganger. None of those trigger deliverance when out of the room. You have plenty of options to counter it, especially since as I pointed out: he can't cure while Deliverance is up or it will drop. So yes, it has not only just a counter, but multiple. It just requires more than the entire group smashing a macro.
As for Banish, I'm not one-hundred percent on the details, but didn't it get a downgrade here not too long ago? Some form of cooldown to where only one person will generally get banished and then it can't be used for awhile? I can't check as I'm at work, but that just means it has a strong group function, but isn't necessarily overpowered. Not to mention, if your group is coordinated, Banish really shouldn't stop you much. However, if there's a situation where one competent person is leading a herd of people that aren't known for combat, it can be fairly good due to its mechanic.
To summarize: just because something is powerful and beats you does not automatically mean it is overpowered. I can state straight away that if you wanted to counter Septus as a Monk, you had options and I outlined them for you.
I gave you solutions to easily counter Deliverance, which is what you asked for. You shouldn't get upset when someone provides you a reasonable counter that doesn't fit your ranting narrative. You got beat because you got tricked and outplayed, it had nothing to do with Deliverance being overpowered. This might surprise you, but no one in this game in infallible.
Soulspear, Archery, Star Tarot, Doppleganger, every single form of passive that Demonic has that afflicts, Sunder (that would force Septus to drop it or get instagibbed). You have options. The fact that Deliverance does not protect Septus from ranged makes it nothing like barrier, which provides protection from such.
Edit: In any event, this is all I'm saying on the subject. It has very valid counters. If you want to forum crusade on some perceived notion that demonic is powerless to stop it, be my guest. The level of passive aggression on this forum is hilarious though.
I remember when Danaeus was nerfed from 6 seconds to 4 seconds, because despite the fact that it exists on a 40s cooldown and has a counter available to every single profession in the game, it was deemed too powerful of a team disruption tool.
Meanwhile, banish is a 10 second disrupt that can only be countered by a profession that is explicitly a poor choice for team combat. Deliverance is also pretty hilarious if you compare it to, say, rebounding: I can watch most of AM smack themselves by queuing up attacks before rebounding comes up. Imagine if hitting rebounding also outright killed you!
I find it a bit ironic that you can claim these strategies are perfectly fine, but can turn around and state that Cleric above all other professions is at a distinct disadvantage against an Assassin - I have to assume it's due to a limited frame of reference. Clearly, playing against the mechanic likely biases us against it, but it's equally disingenuous to claim that it's a case of being "tricked and outplayed". It's a "trick" that has existed and been complained about for literally a decade now, yet somehow has eluded attempts to patch it up. Perhaps it's a case of simply not being vocal against monks because few people are willing to cheese it to this extent; with the return of Rasca's shenanigans and continuation of Septus' attempts at poking the bee hive of Stavenn, we'll see if this remains the case.
I remember when Danaeus was nerfed from 6 seconds to 4 seconds, because despite the fact that it exists on a 40s cooldown and has a counter available to every single profession in the game, it was deemed too powerful of a team disruption tool.
Meanwhile, banish is a 10 second disrupt that can only be countered by a profession that is explicitly a poor choice for team combat. Deliverance is also pretty hilarious if you compare it to, say, rebounding: I can watch most of AM smack themselves by queuing up attacks before rebounding comes up. Imagine if hitting rebounding also outright killed you!
I find it a bit ironic that you can claim these strategies are perfectly fine, but can turn around and state that Cleric above all other professions is at a distinct disadvantage against an Assassin - I have to assume it's due to a limited frame of reference. Clearly, playing against the mechanic likely biases us against it, but it's equally disingenuous to claim that it's a case of being "tricked and outplayed". It's a "trick" that has existed and been complained about for literally a decade now, yet somehow has eluded attempts to patch it up. Perhaps it's a case of simply not being vocal against monks because few people are willing to cheese it to this extent; with the return of Rasca's shenanigans and continuation of Septus' attempts at poking the bee hive of Stavenn, we'll see if this remains the case.
It might be a limited frame of reference in regards to Cleric since Cleric functions somewhat differently by comparison to counterparts elsewhere, like with Kanai and their offensive kai (similar to Shindo) equiv. However, Deliverance's mechanics are a constant across IRE in all forms. I know how to counter it because I've fought against it for ages and I've also used it myself. It's actually weaker here because you can't prep it beforehand and then walk into a room for it to then activate. It was actually even stronger in Aetolia because it would proc even on ranged attacks (it doesn't any longer). You have plenty of warning here both with the incoming message, room message, and so forth. It's really, really easy to avoid and then you can just start ranging them because they can't do anything about the range unless they want to drop the Deliverance.
Edit: Worth mentioning that Cleric is under a disadvantage against Assassin by, ironically, Ahkan's own previous arguments because of the fact that Assassin has such high affliction potential and passive healing is completely random in what it heals. It's less likely that something critical like asthma or impatience will get healed and something like Dizziness will get healed in its place.
As for Banish, I'll test it when I get home. Honestly, I've always been of the opinion that if a mechanic annoys/challenges you, that doesn't mean it's a bad mechanic. It's working as intended. The fact also remains that a counter to Banish actually exists here, whereas that isn't the case anywhere else either. (Edit: Had to remove this because Iluv was apparently in Summoner, just wielding a dirk for... some reason. Still could've ranged Septus though) I think saying that Assassin is bad for groups is fairly disingenuous. You're not likely to get kills with it, no, but it's a prime support class. I mean, there are times when I leave the room during a group fight as a Ranger even when I'm not being focused because I know how effective barbed w/noctec is at hindering and how good net arrows are at stopping Raksha, as an example. Not every class needs to have high alpha damage to be good at groups. Does AM have an advantage in that regard? Yeah. I won't refute that. However, I wouldn't ever say that Assassin/Renegade is bad in groups.
That's the problem though - we DO need 'alpha damage'. This has been proven time and time again when we try to set up affliction kills and lose a person per round due to sheer damage output. In addition, assassin has the lowest damage mitigation across demonic, with weaving providing only a 5% resistance, for a class that gets no bonus to constitution, no health bonus, no sip bonus, no active heal. Assassins drop like flies in groups. If you disagree, feel free to give the profession a try, and you'll see why only a handful of players elect to use it.
Rebounding is really really easy to avoid. People still hit it. Simple mechanics such as "don't hit this target" usually have simple penalties, like equilibrium loss or taking an attack's worth of damage. Not death.
The thing is, we've all fought against banish and deliverance too. We are intimately familiar with it, as we've all died to it more times than we'd probably care to admit. The major difference here versus other IRE games is that, in every other IRE game where deliverance is a mechanic, it's available to all factions. Aetolia and Achaea both have monks present on every side. Here, it's limited to one faction, making it a major disruption/annoyance that AM never has to encounter.
That's the problem though - we DO need 'alpha damage'. This has been proven time and time again when we try to set up affliction kills and lose a person per round due to sheer damage output. In addition, assassin has the lowest damage mitigation across demonic, with weaving providing only a 5% resistance, for a class that gets no bonus to constitution, no health bonus, no sip bonus, no active heal. Assassins drop like flies in groups. If you disagree, feel free to give the profession a try, and you'll see why only a handful of players elect to use it.
The thing is, we've all fought against banish and deliverance too. We are intimately familiar with it, as we've all died to it more times than we'd probably care to admit. The major difference here versus other IRE games is that, in every other IRE game where deliverance is a mechanic, it's available to all factions. Aetolia and Achaea both have monks present on every side. Here, it's limited to one faction, making it a major disruption/annoyance that AM never has to encounter.
Demonic has plenty of damage right now with Deathknight doing Axe Reave w/Soulquench and Negate. That's 120 unblockable right there from the Soulquench alone. Summoner also does very high damage in groups as does Defiler. However, I do agree with Demonic that the damage meta is a bit of a problem and a lot of classes are doing too much damage with little effort involved. As for trying Assassin, I've played Syssin/Serpent/etc. to absolute death at this point but I did originally thought about playing it but ultimately settled on Ranger.
Ultimately, if you feel it's a problem, feel free to submit a classlead about it. I would probably comment with opposition to anything supporting outright removal/shafting it to the point where it's not worth spending the kai to use. If you want to reduce the amount of time that someone spends banished, that would probably net more support.
I don't have an issue with avoiding Deliverance. I think it is hilarious and cutesy. It is the reason why I like Meteor and Sukhder's Minion. What irks me is the frustratingly lack of options after the initial bowling-pin teehee. If you think that range is a valid option against a monk, a monk with flip boots, and a monk with flipboots and a Raksha band, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't have an issue with avoiding Deliverance. I think it is hilarious and cutesy. It is the reason why I like Meteor and Sukhder's Minion. What irks me is the frustratingly lack of options after the initial bowling-pin teehee. If you think that range is a valid option against a monk, a monk with flip boots, and a monk with flipboots and a Raksha band, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
That suggests more an issue with Raksha and flip boots more than Deliverance (or Monk), and I'd actually agree. Pretty sure the Raksha argument, from what I've seen over the years, has been beaten to death at this point. Range does stop Raksha users though. In the three skirmishes I've had with Aakrin involved, I can say that shooting him with nets stopped his raksha on top of pinshot and every other hinder I can muster. I'm fine with relegating myself to a support role if it benefits my team.
Your hinder is out of room. Mine is in-room. I pretty much floored the pedal on the cheese-y-ness factor (I hate doing this, damn you @Septus) and still two proficient fighters and one tag-along got supremely outcheesed by the Cheese Meister himself.
Actually, I hear that Septus has a very large aversion to clowns. I'm of the opinion that we should import the Jester class to Imperian so that we can counter Septus.
Even a newbie is "useful" in an open world group because there are no diminishing returns, but I wouldn't play Assassin in team combat except for that I only play Assassin.
No, a person who plays Assassin shouldn't be discouraged from participating in group combat, but if you told someone wanting to specifically do group PK as a Demoner to roll Assassin, I'd think you were trolling.
Actually, I hear that Septus has a very large aversion to clowns. I'm of the opinion that we should import the Jester class to Imperian so that we can counter Septus.
Actually, I hear that Septus has a very large aversion to clowns. I'm of the opinion that we should import the Jester class to Imperian so that we can counter Septus.
Bard is already a thing.
Bard can't touch Jester in terms of clown and tomfoolery. Septus really hates clowns and Jester by extension. Ring convos have verified this.
Actually, I hear that Septus has a very large aversion to clowns. I'm of the opinion that we should import the Jester class to Imperian so that we can counter Septus.
Bard is already a thing.
Bard can't touch Jester in terms of clown and tomfoolery. Septus really hates clowns and Jester by extension. Ring convos have verified this.
When Bards have a jack-in-the-box instakill that bites heads off and their version of piety rite is throwing banana peels everywhere, I will believe you!
I remember when Danaeus was nerfed from 6 seconds to 4 seconds, because despite the fact that it exists on a 40s cooldown and has a counter available to every single profession in the game, it was deemed too powerful of a team disruption tool.
I just want to point out here that the problem was "Khizan uses Danaeus, Khizan uses Dameron Danaeus, Iluv uses Danaeus, Iluv uses Dameron Danaeus..." in a gigantic chain of CC. We could and did Danaeus Risca out of fights for 30 seconds or more at a time.
I don't think the duration nerf was the best change to the skill, but it did need a change.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Comments
Wardancers are going to get attention after the smithing change just like every other class. If it were me I'd be much more inclined to wait and smile and get Garryn's full attention on making changes, rather than throw an intensive chore among a pile of other changes for everyone else.
When coming back from Banish, people should have this highlighted: Septus, surrounded by a glowing white nimbus is sitting on the ground.
It also drains kai very, very quickly so it's not equiv. to Barrier at all, because it will drop after a quick period of time after his kai runs out.
Simply put, you got tricked by Septus. That doesn't mean it's broken, you just know what to expect next time.
With his logic, I expect to have anyone who spams my prismatic barrier with five or more hits to DIE INSTANTLY. (AM and magic ks entire party would vanish in a heart beat.)
Second, you actually have retaliation in the form of ranged attacks. Archery, throw star, ranged doppleganger. None of those trigger deliverance when out of the room. You have plenty of options to counter it, especially since as I pointed out: he can't cure while Deliverance is up or it will drop. So yes, it has not only just a counter, but multiple. It just requires more than the entire group smashing a macro.
As for Banish, I'm not one-hundred percent on the details, but didn't it get a downgrade here not too long ago? Some form of cooldown to where only one person will generally get banished and then it can't be used for awhile? I can't check as I'm at work, but that just means it has a strong group function, but isn't necessarily overpowered. Not to mention, if your group is coordinated, Banish really shouldn't stop you much. However, if there's a situation where one competent person is leading a herd of people that aren't known for combat, it can be fairly good due to its mechanic.
To summarize: just because something is powerful and beats you does not automatically mean it is overpowered. I can state straight away that if you wanted to counter Septus as a Monk, you had options and I outlined them for you.
Soulspear, Archery, Star Tarot, Doppleganger, every single form of passive that Demonic has that afflicts, Sunder (that would force Septus to drop it or get instagibbed). You have options. The fact that Deliverance does not protect Septus from ranged makes it nothing like barrier, which provides protection from such.
Edit: In any event, this is all I'm saying on the subject. It has very valid counters. If you want to forum crusade on some perceived notion that demonic is powerless to stop it, be my guest. The level of passive aggression on this forum is hilarious though.
Meanwhile, banish is a 10 second disrupt that can only be countered by a profession that is explicitly a poor choice for team combat. Deliverance is also pretty hilarious if you compare it to, say, rebounding: I can watch most of AM smack themselves by queuing up attacks before rebounding comes up. Imagine if hitting rebounding also outright killed you!
I find it a bit ironic that you can claim these strategies are perfectly fine, but can turn around and state that Cleric above all other professions is at a distinct disadvantage against an Assassin - I have to assume it's due to a limited frame of reference. Clearly, playing against the mechanic likely biases us against it, but it's equally disingenuous to claim that it's a case of being "tricked and outplayed". It's a "trick" that has existed and been complained about for literally a decade now, yet somehow has eluded attempts to patch it up. Perhaps it's a case of simply not being vocal against monks because few people are willing to cheese it to this extent; with the return of Rasca's shenanigans and continuation of Septus' attempts at poking the bee hive of Stavenn, we'll see if this remains the case.
Edit: Worth mentioning that Cleric is under a disadvantage against Assassin by, ironically, Ahkan's own previous arguments because of the fact that Assassin has such high affliction potential and passive healing is completely random in what it heals. It's less likely that something critical like asthma or impatience will get healed and something like Dizziness will get healed in its place.
As for Banish, I'll test it when I get home. Honestly, I've always been of the opinion that if a mechanic annoys/challenges you, that doesn't mean it's a bad mechanic. It's working as intended. The fact also remains that a counter to Banish actually exists here, whereas that isn't the case anywhere else either. (Edit: Had to remove this because Iluv was apparently in Summoner, just wielding a dirk for... some reason. Still could've ranged Septus though) I think saying that Assassin is bad for groups is fairly disingenuous. You're not likely to get kills with it, no, but it's a prime support class. I mean, there are times when I leave the room during a group fight as a Ranger even when I'm not being focused because I know how effective barbed w/noctec is at hindering and how good net arrows are at stopping Raksha, as an example. Not every class needs to have high alpha damage to be good at groups. Does AM have an advantage in that regard? Yeah. I won't refute that. However, I wouldn't ever say that Assassin/Renegade is bad in groups.
Rebounding is really really easy to avoid. People still hit it. Simple mechanics such as "don't hit this target" usually have simple penalties, like equilibrium loss or taking an attack's worth of damage. Not death.
The thing is, we've all fought against banish and deliverance too. We are intimately familiar with it, as we've all died to it more times than we'd probably care to admit. The major difference here versus other IRE games is that, in every other IRE game where deliverance is a mechanic, it's available to all factions. Aetolia and Achaea both have monks present on every side. Here, it's limited to one faction, making it a major disruption/annoyance that AM never has to encounter.
Ultimately, if you feel it's a problem, feel free to submit a classlead about it. I would probably comment with opposition to anything supporting outright removal/shafting it to the point where it's not worth spending the kai to use. If you want to reduce the amount of time that someone spends banished, that would probably net more support.
I will never be outcheesed.
Sry.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."