@Shou That was a bug that was being abused by (at most) 3 people. It was fixed when we (demonic) reported it.
As for the rest of your comparison to dopplegangers..apples to oranges. You're 100% immune to npc caravans while the noctusari using the doppleganger can still be hit by npcs (which is why you were using prowling). You can force a doppleganger out of the scenario by hitting it and killing it. You CANNOT force someone out of the prowling defense.
@Ultrix That means nothing when the defense is up and is negating previous aggro.
@Shou I think in this instance he's referring to the caravan aspect of it, not the general purpose I think you were trying to relay, because a doppleganger cannot put walls and such up in a caravan's room.
I cannot put up or take down walls in a caravan's room either, doing so will get me killed.
@Shou That was a bug that was being abused by (at most) 3 people. It was fixed when we (demonic) reported it.
As for the rest of your comparison to dopplegangers..apples to oranges. You're 100% immune to npc caravans while the noctusari using the doppleganger can still be hit by npcs (which is why you were using prowling). You can force a doppleganger out of the scenario by hitting it and killing it. You CANNOT force someone out of the prowling defense.
I wasn't talking about the doppleganger bug, I'm talking about using dopplegangers to disrupt another group's attempt at taking a caravan, which, in this case, is what I used prowling for: walking through the caravan groups and vaulting over to the safe side of the wall to break it, allowing the caravan to continue moving. If enemies were on the safe side of the wall (as they usually were), doing so put ALL of us in danger of horde attacks.
Apples to oranges. You cannot compare the two as dopplegangers do not imply an immunity to the biggest threat at caravans, the npcs. You're in the room immune to npc attacks. Dopplegangers only disrupt 1 person. With prowling you can disrupt an entire team and the only thing you have to do is turn prowling on again. They can't do anything to stop you or remove it. Hence the suggestion that eq/balance usage would strip it.
I'm going to drop the doppleganger part since it's falling on deaf ears. Instead, let me ask you: what exactly does prowling let me do that I can do without it, besides stand in the same room as horde npcs and accomplish absolutely nothing since I can't wall/attack/keep the caravan in-room.
Without prowling, I can still: - enter a room, shard terrify the prismatic-holder, and leave - break a wall from the safe side and leave
Apples to oranges. You cannot compare the two as dopplegangers do not imply an immunity to the biggest threat at caravans, the npcs. You're in the room immune to npc attacks. Dopplegangers only disrupt 1 person. With prowling you can disrupt an entire team and the only thing you have to do is turn prowling on again. They can't do anything to stop you or remove it. Hence the suggestion that eq/balance usage would strip it.
Wait. I am confused (big shocker amirite?). How is sending in a npc of your own, from somewhere in the area outside of the caravan path, to harass people killing the horde not making the doppleganger owners immune from the biggest threat at caravans, the npcs? Also, dopplegangers allow you to send in one person to shard terrify, and chance down individuals then get backup with nothing except a rt <insert AM zerg name here> (I am guessing you are going to bring up pilgrimage, but it takes about 3s to create the rite, then almost 4 for the person pilging in, so, not really the same in this situation).
There are some subtle but major advantages to this. You don't have an entourage of people so the person disrupting can move, duck and weave as they need. Along those lines it essentially allows the entire group to take advantage of flight, flipboots and any other escape artifacts the person disrupting might have. All while keeping everyone in your group, save one person safe from the npcs and pcs alike (side note: I am sure if you were in any circle except demonic you would be asking for a change here).
Back to the points on prowling. I'm confused again, as far as I know shard disrupt does strip prowling and has about a 4s balance associated to it before prowling can be applied again. I don't understand where your nerf prowling warcry is coming from other than the fact Shou killed a wall and made you sad.
Ahkan said: Then why don't you do those things? (because you have prowling)
Why do you run into a room and blow the wall from the unsafe side? (because you have prowling)
Why do you not shard terrify the prismatic holder? (because you're bad and because you have prowling)
First of all, I don't shard disrupt from the unsafe side because, as I said before, the 4.2 equilibrium loss will kill me. Prowling or no prowling.
Secondly, I don't know if we were playing the same game, but I did actually do
those things. I would have terrified the prismatic holder more often, but
your entire team was more focused on using dopplegangers and meteors to
attack me instead of holding prismatic.
I distinctly remember two situations from that caravan attempt: 1) You and I were on the safe side of a wall, I disrupted, horde walked in. They targeted you. You left. I left. 2) You and I were on the safe side of a wall, I disrupted, horde walked in. They targeted me. I left.
Prowling did not let me survive in either of those situations.
Doppleganger is practically no different from what every other side has for options, so the argument that it's better in a caravan situation is a weird one. Magick has roots and AM has telepathy. Doppleganger does not attack on its own, it allows a handful of noctu and tarot abilities to be used at range. Dopplegangers can't use any shard abilities (if that's what's being implied? I honestly can't tell because it makes zero sense to assume that can be done). On top of this, AM has access to demoncalm, which is an absurdly imbalanced counter to a single ability that no other faction can pull off.
How is that comparable to being able to reset group aggro at will?
Doppleganger is practically no different from what every other side has for options, so the argument that it's better in a caravan situation is a weird one. Magick has roots and AM has telepathy. Doppleganger does not attack on its own, it allows a handful of noctu and tarot abilities to be used at range. Dopplegangers can't use any shard abilities (if that's what's being implied? I honestly can't tell because it makes zero sense to assume that can be done). On top of this, AM has access to demoncalm, which is an absurdly imbalanced counter to a single ability that no other faction can pull off.
How is that comparable to being able to reset group aggro at will?
I guess part of the problem here is AM doesn't have any active monks where every other demonic or magick player is a summoner / druid respectively.
I don't understand this last bit, "reset group aggro at will?" Because I think it has been said multiple times already in this thread, but I will reiterate, a pred cannot shard disrupt without losing prowling. When they do disrupt they are off equil with no prowling for 4.2s. What more do you want?
Additionally every circle has access to the ability to "reset group aggro at will" with shard terrify red. Which leaves you in the same boat, off balance in a room next to the horde with no prowling, and with game side separators there aren't a whole lot of things that can stop you from pulling it off.
Doppleganger is practically no different from what every other side has for options, so the argument that it's better in a caravan situation is a weird one. Magick has roots and AM has telepathy. Doppleganger does not attack on its own, it allows a handful of noctu and tarot abilities to be used at range. Dopplegangers can't use any shard abilities (if that's what's being implied? I honestly can't tell because it makes zero sense to assume that can be done). On top of this, AM has access to demoncalm, which is an absurdly imbalanced counter to a single ability that no other faction can pull off.
How is that comparable to being able to reset group aggro at will?
I guess part of the problem here is AM doesn't have any active monks where every other demonic or magick player is a summoner / druid respectively.
I don't understand this last bit, "reset group aggro at will?" Because I think it has been said multiple times already in this thread, but I will reiterate, a pred cannot shard disrupt without losing prowling. When they do disrupt they are off equil with no prowling for 4.2s. What more do you want?
Additionally every circle has access to the ability to "reset group aggro at will" with shard terrify red. Which leaves you in the same boat, off balance in a room next to the horde with no prowling, and with game side separators there aren't a whole lot of things that can stop you from pulling it off.
To my understanding, if you have aggro on you and you turn prowling on, aggro will reset to the next priority target in the room - that's what I mean by resetting aggro. It doesn't move you and does not consume a shard.
I don't really have a whole lot of sympathy for not having monks, given that AM generally has at least double the population of demonic, if not more. A few priests/templars can probably stand to try playing a class that can't tank everything.
Activating prowling does not make mobiles already targeting you stop attacking or retarget. It only keeps new mobiles from targeting you during their initial agro action.
Doppleganger is practically no different from what every other side has for options, so the argument that it's better in a caravan situation is a weird one. Magick has roots and AM has telepathy. Doppleganger does not attack on its own, it allows a handful of noctu and tarot abilities to be used at range. Dopplegangers can't use any shard abilities (if that's what's being implied? I honestly can't tell because it makes zero sense to assume that can be done). On top of this, AM has access to demoncalm, which is an absurdly imbalanced counter to a single ability that no other faction can pull off.
How is that comparable to being able to reset group aggro at will?
I guess part of the problem here is AM doesn't have any active monks where every other demonic or magick player is a summoner / druid respectively.
I don't understand this last bit, "reset group aggro at will?" Because I think it has been said multiple times already in this thread, but I will reiterate, a pred cannot shard disrupt without losing prowling. When they do disrupt they are off equil with no prowling for 4.2s. What more do you want?
Additionally every circle has access to the ability to "reset group aggro at will" with shard terrify red. Which leaves you in the same boat, off balance in a room next to the horde with no prowling, and with game side separators there aren't a whole lot of things that can stop you from pulling it off.
To my understanding, if you have aggro on you and you turn prowling
on, aggro will reset to the next priority target in the room - that's what I mean by resetting aggro. It doesn't move you and does not consume a shard.
I don't really have a whole lot of sympathy for not having monks, given that AM generally has at least double the population of demonic, if not more. A few priests/templars can probably stand to try playing a class that can't tank everything.
Sure, send me some credits and I will forget the professions I have and switch. I'll even let you pick the new profession.
The "I have 20 people on my team but none of them are monks, dopplegangers are op" is a bad argument. You would not like monk because you die the first time.
The "I have 20 people on my team but none of them are monks, dopplegangers are op" is a bad argument. You would not like monk because you die the first time.
Nice paraphrasing here, I like what you did.
side note: I really try to not exaggerate numbers, I feel like you do enough for all of us.
And I die all the time, probably because I am a nubbin who only knows how to wear full plate and swing a claymore.
Ahkan's predisposition to hyperbole is a well documented constant on the forums. His argument still stands that you cannot compare doppleganger actions to prowling. Prowling is far more "poor man's phase" in practice and the crux of the issue is that prowling has awkward interactions with caravans and gives enough of an edge in caravan combat that it could probably be looked at and tweaked a bit.
I was under the impression that at first Ahkan thought that shard disrupting while prowling didn't drop prowling, which is false. Then Wysrias suggested that hitting prowling reset aggro in the room off the prowler and onto everyone else, which was pointed out by Eoghan to be incorrect. So what other edge does it give that is so game breaking that the skill needs to be reworked?
I really don't know. I'm not opposed to adjusting skills to make the game more balanced and enjoyable for everyone, but so far every reason and advantage that has been given to change prowling has been proven to not actually exist (unless I am totally missing something, which may be the case). So I am just looking for some actual situations where prowling is giving an advantage so great that reworking the skill could be justified.
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@Ultrix That means nothing when the defense is up and is negating previous aggro.
I cannot put up or take down walls in a caravan's room either, doing so will get me killed.
I wasn't talking about the doppleganger bug, I'm talking about using dopplegangers to disrupt another group's attempt at taking a caravan, which, in this case, is what I used prowling for: walking through the caravan groups and vaulting over to the safe side of the wall to break it, allowing the caravan to continue moving. If enemies were on the safe side of the wall (as they usually were), doing so put ALL of us in danger of horde attacks.
Without prowling, I can still:
- enter a room, shard terrify the prismatic-holder, and leave
- break a wall from the safe side and leave
First of all, I don't shard disrupt from the unsafe side because, as I said before, the 4.2 equilibrium loss will kill me. Prowling or no prowling.
Secondly, I don't know if we were playing the same game, but I did actually do those things. I would have terrified the prismatic holder more often, but your entire team was more focused on using dopplegangers and meteors to attack me instead of holding prismatic.
I distinctly remember two situations from that caravan attempt:
1) You and I were on the safe side of a wall, I disrupted, horde walked in. They targeted you. You left. I left.
2) You and I were on the safe side of a wall, I disrupted, horde walked in. They targeted me. I left.
Prowling did not let me survive in either of those situations.
How is that comparable to being able to reset group aggro at will?
To my understanding, if you have aggro on you and you turn prowling on, aggro will reset to the next priority target in the room - that's what I mean by resetting aggro. It doesn't move you and does not consume a shard.
I don't really have a whole lot of sympathy for not having monks, given that AM generally has at least double the population of demonic, if not more. A few priests/templars can probably stand to try playing a class that can't tank everything.
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”