Knights, Claymores, and Runelore

Khizan

@Jeremy

@Garryn

When I went for a claymore as a knight, I was expecting to lose some utility for it. No bulwark(my joking classlead aside), no future shield skills, less mitigation, terribly slow afflicting speed. Fine. Acceptable. I sacrificed all of those things on the altar of Increased Damage, and I did so willingly.

Which is why I'm pretty pissed off to find that my claymore's taken a definitive backseat to my one-hander when it comes to actually damaging people. All three of my damaging(or pseudo-damaging) runeflares require a 1h weapon now. My claymore's going to find itself on the bench for a solid 50% or more of my damage rotation, which bothers the hell out of me. I've tied 800cr up in an artifact claymore to help my damage and now my go-to weapon for damage is the battleaxe. While I've also got an L2 axe, knights who aren't so fortunate are going to be forced to bench a 350-1600 credit damage weapon in favor of a forged weapon when it comes to damage. Knights who've chosen their class-based weapon proficiency as 'claymore' already are going to have to shell out another 100 lessons to use their skills properly.

This seems so horribly shortsighted.

If you want to get rid of claymore's problematic burst damage, I'd much rather you just did it outright, instead of trying to classlead the claymore into the backseat by linking new skills to a wielded item. And claymore damage is problematic. I'm aware of this. Right now, a claymore DSL against me is 136 damage, through fullplate, runemastered algiz, surcoat, and 10% evasion. And I'm one of the tankier people you'll find. I hit less armored people for way more damage. It's everything that people were afraid it would be. I can see why you'd want to limit its effects. It needs it, frankly.

I'd just much rather you say "Claymore DSL was an experiment that didn't work out like we hoped it would, the damage is too high and it's limiting our design space in ways we don't like." Then just pull claymore DSL entirely and issue full refunds. Or say "Future knight skills are going to be based around the idea that using your skills to full potential is going to involve a 1h+offhand combination, because claymore damage is proving too difficult to balance around the damage of 1h weapons, and so we're going to offer a refund on artifact claymores for the next month."

Whatever you decide, please stop devaluing my artifact purchase by classleading it into the backseat. Had I know what direction Garryn was going to take Runelore, I'd have decided against an 800cr damage focused weapon that doesn't actually see use in my damage combos.

Bathan

I don't think it's fair to compare Knights across the board. All three classes are in very different places, despite utilizing a similar tool in DSL. I explained in another thread that LKs have reached point where they have access to a sustainable plus damage mechanic in sowulu. Khizan has a level 2 axe and hit me with DSL/Sowulu flare and did this:

Khizan secures his previously wielded items and instantly draws a mithril
battleaxe into his right hand, with a runic tablet flowing into the left.
With a lightning-quick motion, Khizan slashes you with a mithril battleaxe.
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Damage report: raw damage 98 cutting, physical. Attacker: Khizan
Modifier                                   Value   Result
Armour Resistance (51 reducible)             56%       70
Surcoat                                      15%       59
Toughness                                    10%       53
Earthshield                                  15%       45
Evasion Skill                                10%       40
Strength Modifier                             11       52
Total Resistance                             47%       52
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage Taken: 52 cutting, physical (raw damage: 98)
Your hearing is suddenly restored.
Khizan swings a mithril battleaxe at you powerfully.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage report: raw damage 98 cutting, physical. Attacker: Khizan
Modifier                                   Value   Result
Armour Resistance (51 reducible)             56%       70
Surcoat                                      15%       59
Toughness                                    10%       53
Earthshield                                  15%       45
Evasion Skill                                10%       40
Strength Modifier                             11       52
Total Resistance                             47%       52
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage Taken: 52 cutting, physical (raw damage: 98)
Sparks fly out at you from a mithril battleaxe and your nerves feel jangled.
A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
Khizan concentrates, and a searing image of the sowulu rune suddenly flares on
your skin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage report: raw damage 58 unblockable. Attacker: Khizan
Modifier                                   Value   Result
Sensitivity                                 -33%       77
Total Resistance                            -32%       77
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage Taken: 77 unblockable (raw damage: 58)

That's 181 damage on a four second cooldown. Every four seconds that can be done. There is no diminishing mechanic, there is no RNG. If he chooses to combo every four seconds, every four seconds he will do 181 damage to me. It's important to note that Khizan is in strong in this instance, which is totally viable because his mechanic, sowulu, is noblock. He does not intelligence to use that, so he can just be a huge tank and still do that damage.

Templars have access to claymores in conjunction with flare which can deal absolutely punishing damage in the correct statpack, one that trades survivability for raw DPS. It has six high DPS combos before needing to re-rite. If it does not, it sits around dealing no damage. It also does not have new runelore gimmicks for teamfights where you can do moderate damage + inflict a status ailment such as sip for less/no toadstool. Templars, post reliable bcry, are a damage class with a short window that can be tanked through if the target is diligent. It's not great, but it is what it is until Garryn puts us in line for some new stuff.

Diavlous are in their own spot which I frankly won't get into because I outlined it in another thread, and maybe someone more current on them could comment.

Bathan

Where all this pertains to claymore.

I agree with a couple of facets of your argument. It would be nice if the admin refunded RGs for claymores bought. Here's why. They cannot be used with the DPS runeflares sowulu, nauthiz or pithahkan. By the numbers, the changes to runelore made it totally pointless to own a claymore unless you're RPing with it, or something. It's a pointless weapon. There is no play style with RGs it works with.

That brings me to another point. When things get changed, I'd like patch notes explaining the decisions. If I can dish out something in the vein of 220 damage flare combos and use a claymore, why can't a RG use a claymore with sowulu? What's the ceiling where the dev team decides, this is too much? I just want to know the circumstances. If I knew, it would be easier to make stances because right now, I'm just confused. I think claymores have a place with Templars, but I can't really tell Khizan why they don't have a place with RGs.

I do not agree with out and out removing claymores though, mostly because all Templars are at this point are damage cannons that can be turtled through, and once that happens, their DPS mechanic is gone. It doesn't make sense to me (again, the need for patch notes imo) as to why other Knight classes should lose claymores because RGs got sustainable, high DPS that doesn't use claymores.

tl;dr I kind of agree with Khizan but I also don't

Ahkan

The wielding the tablet is a pretty 'weak' balancing factor. That being said, you should not be able to dsl for 120 damage with strych/strych and follow it up with a 12% damage attack that syncs up to fire on every dsl. The sowulu flare is a bad idea and the sowulu band-aid for balance is necessary, but somehow worse.

I don't see why nairat needed a wielded requirement. The wielding requirement is prohibitive to claymores and polearms only. Giving knights 2x shadowplant is the problem. Let me reiterate this (again) Knights do not need shadowplant-super-calotropis.. I'm not sure what game people play, but nairat isn't that deadly with a claymore. It's a damned death knell for sabres. Yet you can tablet/sabre and nairat with a sabre. Flare Nairat being given to knights? Unnecessary and excessive(TM). Flare nairat being endorse for sabres but denied to claymores? Unnecessary and excessive with a side of misguided.

Runelore changes are ridiculously powerful for a runeguard. I'd give Lionas' left nut to be able to flare some of those with my sabre. Why? Because it's overpowered as crap. It's a UNIVERSAL shadowplant that works twice with my faster-than dstab affliction-damage skill all in the best holding skill in the game stacked with rubble. Runeguards don't have it that bad. Aren't they the tankiest class in the game, mixed with all the offensive goodness inherent in intelligent flaring?

**By no means am I saying it sucks for wytchen. Runeguards are rolling with platinum balance factors and can faceroll through this crap. Wytchen are rolling Silver and have to juggle a small honda, a flaming badger and Kanthari while trying to not die.

Ahkan

tl;dr I kind of agree with Khizan but I also don't  <--- This.

Knights, at this point, need a visit from the nerf fairy. They're too good across the board. Tanky, dps, afflictions, limb damage. Additionally, thematically breaking down knights by weapon types is a -good- idea. I fully support this. Like Khizan said, if you're going to do this. I think it's a classy (necessary and not-excessive) move to refund the claymores/polearms OR allow a direct swap to an artifact weapon of equal value.

Khizan

It's not Nairat with the wield req, it's nauthiz the toadstool eater. So all my damage runes require a 1h weapon, which completely nullifies the point  of owning a claymore.

Nairat the pseudo-calotropis I can take or leave. RG need something for sabreknights, but I'm not set on this one. I'll ignore that topic for now, though, since it doesn't pertain to the claymore discussion.

@Bathan If the Templar rework Garryn told you about contains any type of sustainable damage burst, expect to see it require an offhand of some sort. It's the 6-and-done mechanism of flare that stops Templars from being being utterly insane.

Bathan

Yup.

Sarrius

Claymore DSL is the problem. It is too powerful for all three knights. In my experience, Soulquench on top of a claymore DSL is really no less powerful than Flare of either flavor - it is portions of unblockable damage that stacks up on top of claymore's high burst. I genuinely regret having supported claymore DSL - and it is a knight option that grows more powerful the more of it you have. With the mass proliferation of knights on one side or another, their best option suddenly becomes forsaking the other roles of their class in favor of using the absolutely punish damage of claymore DSL. The burst damage is so high that any other play is a sub-optimal decision. Hell, there's even things that make this kind of logic snowball - factors that feed the fire to just make claymore an appealing decision, like WispPoison/NoSip Flare on Magick side, the general burst damage of Anti-Magick, the absolutely crushing ability to control enemies negating the actual need for engage in Demonic (writhes, multiple sources of aeon and ways to ensure it sticks, gravehands, etc).

Aside from now when Khizan is FORCED to put his claymore away, I have not seen any Knight toting a sword and board in PvP besides Risca. Doesn't it stand to point that this is a good piece of evidence to see how appealing and powerful claymore DSL is - i.e, everybody is willing to pay the opportunity cost (which is negligibly low for at least Runeguard, due to their other tanking benefits) to use a claymore, because it is just that good. The function needs to be scrapped, or claymores need to have their damage formula tweaked.

Bathan

Again, I'm fine with scrapping it once some kind of change is made to Templar, but right now, the class does one thing. It has one singular function in team combat: high burst damage. It sacrifices survivability to do it (unless you're sporting artifacts, which I am) and rites to do a butt ton of single target damage. Templar does not have the ability to transfix, or to limit healing, or to stun reliably. It has hands, which, cool I guess, penance, not really a thing in team combat, damnation, cleave? You talk about utilizing other roles, but what other role is there for Templar? In the future, yes, definitely. Let's not make classes that require absurd damage mechanics to be relevant. In the now, knowing my class won't be touched for at least a year, I'm going to say let me have my crutch or give me a refund so I can switch classes, tbh.

Bathan

You rub some oxalis on a shimmering amethyst claymore.
You swing a shimmering amethyst claymore at yourself with a powerful strike.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage report: raw damage 110 cutting, physical. Attacker: Bathan
Modifier                                   Value   Result
Armour Resistance (66 reducible)             56%       73
Surcoat                                      15%       62
Toughness                                    10%       56
Earthshield                                  15%       47
Evasion Skill                                20%       38
Strength Modifier                              2       40
Total Resistance                             64%       40
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage Taken: 40 cutting, physical (raw damage: 110)
Your vision and hearing are suddenly restored.
You rub some strychnine on a shimmering amethyst claymore.
With a lightning-quick motion, you slash yourself with a shimmering amethyst
claymore.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage report: raw damage 110 cutting, physical. Attacker: Bathan
Modifier                                   Value   Result
Armour Resistance (66 reducible)             56%       73
Surcoat                                      15%       62
Toughness                                    10%       56
Earthshield                                  15%       47
Evasion Skill                                20%       38
Strength Modifier                              2       40
Total Resistance                             64%       40
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage Taken: 40 cutting, physical (raw damage: 110)
A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
Balance Taken: 3.91s
3:34 379/460 520/520 1989 2263  e- 97
Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Seance to burst
into flames and wreathe itself around yourself.
Damage Taken: 100 fayth, mental (raw damage: 64)

That's in clever. That's my highest possible DPS output. It does like 4 less than what Khizan can do all day in strong mode with no magick collar. I'm lollin'.

Ahkan

@Sarrius: I rarely go into combat with my claymore. Sword and Board is the way to roll.

Sarrius

You could have changed your response to "I rarely go into combat", @Ahkan. I wish I saw you out there more.

Ahkan

One a day. Shards are like vitamins.