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Infirmity: The little band aid that couldn't.

AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
Infirmity is a good start in so far as to say I opened my eyes with a blistering hang over and thought about taking a first step.

Crash course in infirmity. If you stick 3 afflictions of the same herb, your opponent gets an incurable affliction that:
-Increases the catharsis threshold by 10%
-Increases wight mana drain
-Could help in teams

Infirmity is per herb. So it's kelp-infirm, maidenhair-infirm, orphine-infirm etc.

Check the breakdown of evil eye and diabolists, here.
Infirmities you will probably never stick: Orphine, Wormwood, Galingale, Laurel, Lovage, Mandrake
Infirmities you could stick: Kelp, Maidenhair (70% catharsis)


Drawbacks: 
Wight has the slowest affliction rate, reducing the possibility of sticking an infirmity. (See Excel file)
Deathaura ticks every 20 seconds. 
Gravehands doesn't help with infirmity
Daegger only applies a toxin 30% of the time hitting every 2.5s. RNG based offense, /sadface.
Daegger is stopped by aura and shield, reducing its already meager contribution.
Base wight mana damage is 12 per stare. That's 24 per deadeyes combo. Toadstool can keep page with the mana loss. The lack of damage from the class itself means it's easy to sip mana to out pace any wight mana drain.
All of evileye cannot be tracked easily. (too much random)
Infirmity is a waste of momentum if you fail (which is why you have to be able to track 50% effectively)
If they fail at outpacing mana and curing and have 3 infirmities...they can still shield (because you can't stop it).

Infirmity is a move in an interesting direction. Sadly, it's not really helpful at this point in the game. It tries to develop synergy with necromancy, but it's forced and unhelpful. It actually achieves and antagonistic effect with animate, forcing you to forego the best benefit of animate or forego the meager bonus of mana damage from infirmity. It's not even really a juggling act. It's a pick the lesser of two evils. The reliable affliction base of diabolist is sparse and ineffective. You can't rely on daegger hunt and nightmare is negligible after the necessary nerf. Agoraphobia, dementia, dizzy, vertigo, paranoia, addiction claustrophobia are filler afflictions and offer no real advantage or inhibit opponents in combat. That's half the affliction list that serves as "stepping stone to unremarkable activated ability." It's time to go back to the drawing board (a first) and maybe address the inherent flaws in the class, rather than another band aid.


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Comments

  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    If you think back to 'old' Diabolist, they had no problem using iodine/hemotoxin daegger combined with nightmare, daemonite, deathaura and tracking evileye (your highest priority in the queue likely being paralysis). This was a strong 1v1 based style of play and could be augmented to further hinder your opponent with bloodworms, provided you didn't use them when it was more likely you'd suffer for it. In short, that was the core style of good Diabolists.

    So what's changed since then? Off the top of my head...


    Nightmare has been slightly weakened. The first hit from it no longer gives an affliction and hellsight both, meaning they have to keep hellsight for a tick.

    Autocuring was introduced. Now people can actually heal, which makes things more fun.

    Herb, Focus and Purge were all SLOWED down. When you consider Diabolist did just fine with them at normal speed... well you get the idea.

    Animate was changed. Lich allows deadeyes to be quite fast. Obviously you will be using Diabolist as fast statpack if you want to pvp.

    Infirmity was added. Now you can make catharsis easier to do.. there is a major difference between even a 50% threshold and a 60% one.


    Evileye contains many mental afflictions. It also contains impatience. The class has deathaura, shadowstrike, nightmare, bloodworms and daemonite. Not to mention daegger, which whilst random in when it afflicts, is still an extra affliction when it does. Obviously one does not throw out random mental afflictions and hope for the best. It's clear that with the tools provided the class is capable of aiming for one infirmity type at a time and sticking it. Someone shielding is a problem faced by every affliction based class.

    Considering no one has yet attempted to use the class competitively and you yourself haven't stepped foot in the arena or any 1v1 circle of combat in a great long time, I think it's a little premature to be calling infirmity useless.

  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Old Malignist? Good point. Back in the day, the colt revolver was the best gun in the world. Before that the crossbow was amazing. It's so weird that they're not used a lot these days. Let's keep our apples and oranges separate, hmm?

    Your poor, poor white knight. 1v1 dead and a bad metric for 'ability' in this game. The rock-paper-scissors mechanic where a modicum of skill could carry you a long way has died a quick and painful death. Garrynbot brought this on in a big way (thank god) because all the white knights made their names killing people who couldn't cure. Nowadays, If I wanted to step up to the 1v1 challenge, I'd pick up the flavor of the month and dump some credits into druid and hit the same button over and over...Oops. The arena is no demonstration of ability and never has been. Neither has 1on1, really. Every major tournament has been solidified with the most cheese.

    -Nightmare was nerfed.
    -Ciguatoxin was nerfed.

    That one two punch pretty much knocked mud-bot rolling white knights like you out of the 'can pk as malignist' field. It's all you did in your flavor of the month jaunt through malig. It's all any malignist did. Summon nightmare. Order nightmare attack, asthma/paralysis, hemotoxin daegger. That cookie cutter was taken off the market.

    Lich is badass, sure. It's the only way to increase your affliction speed. Oops, it doesn't apply the mana damage to benefit from infirmity (you missed that part, catch it on the re-read) This is bad design. Infirmity isn't as badass as you make it out to be. Raising the threshold to catharsis three years ago would be the holy grail of pk. That's simply not the case anymore. Why? You can't lock someone out of shielding. The ciguatoxin cooldown pretty much guarantees that anyone who wants to shield can shield as long as they keep trying. A malignist isn't going to toxin-lock you today so you'll be fine. You can't catharsis through shield and there's no mechanic built into malignist to sidestep this turtling.
    -THE WINDOW IS OPEN!
    -Target shields
    -Target sips mana
    -You deadeyes for 30 mana damage. <-- now imagine this as health damage. Something about a rowboat and an ocean here

    -Deathaura hits once every 20 seconds. Oh so reliable.
    -Shadowstrike is a stall tactic. Stalling isn't winning.
    -How many demons are you going to have in a room?
    -You can't track mental afflictions well. (that's the column with all the Ns in it). If you're going to build a mechanism around knowing the exact number of afflictions on a target per herb, you'd think there should be a way to figure it out outside of gambling (which is a recurring theme in diabolist). <-- bad design

    Someone shielding is a problem faced by every affliction based class. Not really. Saboteurs can easily side-step shields (they also have this nice volcano that cancels rebounding!) and have amazing anti-shield skills. Wytchen can block shields, even though they don't really need to after a certain point. Knights can raze and have the market cornered on turtle trapping. Noctu can blitz down your shield and damage you down, because someone built the skills to stop shield turtles. Insert remark about clerics, shatter and fanatism. Malignists are lagging behind the power curve because the design is outdated.

    Edit: Sagron built a pretty badass toxin/affliction tracking system that I imagine you're familiar with *coughcough* Most of us have gone afk against that system and been none the worse for wear.

  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    It's easy to refer to something you don't understand as being out of date. That's fine. Not everyone enjoys 1v1 just as not everyone enjoys group combat. I am clearly not the best group combatant or leader and so I usually refrain from professing too much concerning it. In a similar vein, when someone clearly lacks understanding of the 1v1 side of this game, they should probably refrain from posting what is, in all honestly, pure theorycraft.

    You, and anyone else, are quite welcome to take up Druid (as per your example) and flavor of the month your way to victory. I mean... it's just that easy, right? If 1v1 were dead, we would not have Jeremy considering ways for champions to duel, classes devoted to a 1v1 style or regular scuffles in the arena that are in all honesty a lot of fun. I have a great deal of respect for those that fight in the arena on a regular or semi-regular basis.

    Now on the subject of shield being such a pain to Diabolist.. this case can be made for Assassin, Hunter, Wytch and plenty of non-affliction classes too. In high level 1v1 play, shield is always going to be something that can end a kill attempt. In my opinion, perfect combat will carry on forever until one person makes a mistake, be it in their defense or maybe even offense. Now while this rarely happens (because no one is perfect) it's what we can try to achieve.

    And uhm.. Maybe -you- can't track mental afflictions. I can. Hunters track based on guess work too!
  • XeronXeron Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    One thing that has not been mentioned (and is the largest factor so I have no clue why) about old vs now diab is curseward. Curseward used to be non-existent in combat. I know this because it's nearly non-existent in Achaea, which is still how it used to be here. Something around 4s EQ to put up, required bal/eq, etc. That meant putting up curseward basically guaranteed a breach and another deadeyes combo before the user even got EQ back. This allowed particularly insane momentum, and made evileye nearly unstoppable. Now, alongside the auto-deffing addition of curseward, everyone uses it. It is a constant, and allows catching up on herb stacks due to it killing an attempt to overwhelm herb balance. There is no way to stop curseward. There is no affliction that is stickable to kill an attempt for 5 seconds (sup new runes). There is no toxin that blocks the ability until cured. There is a negligible mana cost to it. That's it. It costs more mana to breach/afflict than it does to curseward. Just sayin'.

    Changing curseward was not a bad idea. Changing curseward alongside nerfing nightmare, nerfing cigua stacking, bringing in purge blood, bringing in a variety of new afflictions to Imperian and not giving a single one of them to Evileye is an odd oversight. Peace being beaten incredibly hard with the nerf bat as well.

    Then along comes a change which requires that old insane momentum to do. The benefits to sticking it is increased mana drain, should you currently be in Wight. To stick it, it requires the increased speed of Lich, or (maybe, I'm unconvinced) luck with hunt. There is no reason to get lucky with hunt. There is no reason to get hit by hunt. It is stopped cold by rebounding, which Diab has no method to strip besides good old RNG (seems to be a continuing factor). It is stopped entirely by shield, which Diab has no effective method to strip. Hammer is slow and not effective for anything that is not a limb damage class. That EQ is nearly 2 deadeyes combos, and will also result in a necessary breach once you recover EQ anyway, so you basically lost 2.5 combos. That murders any kind of progress easily.

    Here is the most hilarious part, imo. If I am fighting a damage class, I can't even keep up with the cost of my own deadeyes combos because I have to sip health. I legitimately could not fight Priests, period, because they could just sit there and cure while leaning on sap, and eventually I would have to stop, or I might as well just Catharsis myself and get it over with. Monks could lean on Crush, and I'm on 0 mana after 4-5 deadeyes. Then Druids (it is Druids, right? Maybe Hunter? God I don't even know someone teach me the new classes) comes along with a mana-based insta-kill/mana draining of their own. Now I can't fight them either. Outrider gives me the choice to clot or eat insane damage off bleeding, but clotting kills my mana too. Toodles, this class is ****.
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    Curseward has always been available to everyone. It's just now, more then just a handful of people keep it up. This is a good thing, just as autocuring itself is a good thing. Wytch must contend with curseward as well and they can not afflict as well as breach. In essence, curseward is a very specific version of rebounding. You know, that thing that knights, wardancers, rangers and so on have been dealing with since day x? Did you know that while you are confused you gain equilibrium much more slowly? Confusion also happens to be in evileye. That's alongside the ever present balance-stealing daemonite and possibly bloodworms too.

    Speed has ever been a prime factor in pvp. Thus the attraction of Lich. Wight is perhaps more suited to a team, where mana draining deadeyes might serve in place of sap should you feel the situation requires the added afflictions.

    As for hunt.. while it can be rebounded, someone who is keeping aura active against a Diabolist is someone who is going to be eating up hellsight a lot easier. Not to mention, if that person is fighting back their aura will vanish whenever they do so. Should they choose to simply turtle there shall be little you can do, nor much any class could do. Regardless, keeping asthma on someone is one of the most basic things for a Diabolist to do, due to it being in their best interest.

    Hammer is used by many classes. It even gets a speed boost with the right shard skill unlocked! In fact, Assassin, Hunter and Wytch use it too! I don't think they are limb-damage classes, yet they all do just fine.

    Diabolist is a very tanky profession. Yes, Diabolist vs Priest is a very hard match and always has been. But this example is not unique, there are plenty of times when a certain class can really keep another certain class in check. The skill of juggling your health and mana usage has always been present, even in the days of the 'overpowered' Diabolist. While I'm not saying the specifics of that are perfect as is, I do not think they are as bad as all that, provided we are referring to 1v1, which is where Diabolist like all it's affliction based kin truly shine.


    When all is said and done, I'm not saying Diabolist is totally fine as it is and it could very well stand to be adjusted further. I am all for a total remake of the class as much as anyone else! What I am saying though, is that it is a class that has not been used seriously for a long time. No one has done anything but complain, without making the effort to actually try. If you don't make an effort, you will not improve - regardless of whether you think the class is incapable or not. I for one, am quite positive that Diabolist can now compete in 1v1 as well as it ever could, if not better.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    -Good examples of breaching classes.Those oranges are round, just like those apples. Most of those classes are trying to stick hemotoxin and butisol (both afflictions that have 3rd person messages). They're also not trying to say "Do you have 1,2,3 kelp afflictions, then get this bonus I can't use because I am X. 

    -Incorrect. You're missing the point. You clearly don't see the problem here.  You need lich to get affliction pressure. You need affliction pressure to stick infirmity. Infirmity modifies mana drain on wight. Mana drain on wight sets up the 60% catharsis. You can't be Lich and Wight at the same time. 

    Hunt is stopped by shield and by rebound, all while only dishing out a toxin 30% of the time. Google probability and do some basic math. You'll learn how sad the scenario is. It's unreliable at best and atrocious at worse. It's not even good damage.

    Missing the point again. You don't -need- hammer as a Wytch if your set up is good (hugalaz is the bomb). Knights can raze. Renegades don't need hammer, they can transition to puncture pretty easy, stick some heroism. Action. Pioneering tactics was never your strong point.

    Off topic much?

     Clearly, all the malignist fighters grew so bored with their success, they quit. If this is the logic people need to 'figure out new tactics" it's going to be a long and slow process.


    P.S. Hunter isn't tracking, really. I give you A. A gives you B and C.  You don't have to 'track' trigger. You could use a linear trigger and farm your way through pk. I'm sure a lot of the Hunters do. (It's not that hard).


  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Could you please play the class in competitive PvP before you talk? Please? Theory is never the same as practice, and none of us are really qualified to say what needs to be fixed if we haven't actually played the class. No, a week or two is not enough, you kind of have to roll with it for a good couple months, actively, to figure out the ins and outs.
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    All I see here now is tired ranting. Now, while my view is not the be all and end all, I have successfully fought and won in all aspects of combat as Diabolist, Wytch, Assassin, Summoner, Bard, Hunter - all classes relying heavily on affliction use. When it comes to modern affliction based combat, I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. You have to actually go out into the game and partake in combat to have said understanding and yes, that means 1v1 as well as groups.
  • RiselithRiselith Member Posts: 3
    While infirmity is a step in the right direction, the mechanics of it are contradictory to the previous goals of a Diabolist. The thing about Infirmity is that it directs you to using certain afflictions rather than attempting to true lock. Well now you might say, "Why don't you true lock them and -then- attempt to stack for infirmity?" Yes they used to be able to true lock fairly well prior to the establishment of autocurer but without the ability to track effectively (due to lack of third party messages) it's a guessing game. So you see one herb cure, a focus, a purge, a tree and you're guessing what they just cured and possibly reapplying afflictions they already have effectively killing your own momentum. This can be argued for the other affliction classes, however due to the third party messages of some toxins, this guessing is lowered to even limited. Now with attempting to apply an infirmity, that's risking most of a deadeyes balance to -guess-. Offering that valuable time to the other person to heal what they have.  It's just not as simple as stacking iodine/hemotoxin and spamming paralysis/stupidity because for one that doesn't add toward an infirmity and two the increasing changes to other professions forces you to change up your strategy.

    You also need to bear in mind that all of the classes you just mentioned being good at has been changed except Diabolist. Bards are more interactive with their sketches and yoth prevents the need for perfect timing on revelation strip. Assassin/renegade has got shadowplant (amongst the other spatium skills), Summoners can mask their aeon. Hunters can burst afflict into a Claw/Brainmelt combo. Wytches can flare runes, throw dust on curse, and blight more effectively. Things have changed, Diabolist hasn't. As the world progresses, so too must everything else. There is a reason for the word "Redundant" in the English language.

    So what could be done? Personally I wouldn't mind seeing infirmity work in the same capacity as wytch marks. In that it ignites after the person has got a specific number of afflictions. Or is given to be more specific. Obviously this would be a momentum mechanic. But wouldn't draw away from the goal to overwhelm with afflictions rather than strictly certain herb afflictions. That is at the very least what I wouldn't mind seeing. I'm no expert, nor do I claim to be. I can see both sides of the argument, however I do feel the outdated aspect of Diabolist is detrimental to its 1v1 capacity. "It used to be godly" just isn't a valid enough argument.

    Just my two cents.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    With the myriad of curing power in the game today, true locks are increasingly impractical anyways. You need to break yourself of the habit of circa 2007 strategy and game balance. Infirmity is a powerful tool and it makes it obvious what the design intent of Malignist is. Stop putting these ancient, dusty concepts like 'true lock' and 'affliction overwhelm' on a pedestal and realize what you have to work with - an ability that rewards clever stacking and good affliction tracking. Until you cease playing the class like it was played to success half a decade ago, you aren't going to get anywhere. The class is probably not the problem here, it is the players - the class might be dated, but to be honest, so is the thinking of those advocating Infirmity being useless or not as powerful as it so obviously is.

    Applying any of your suggested changes to Infirmity would make it overpowered - the skill is obviously unexplored, because the only people discussing it either don't have the class or don't put in the time to learn and test it in a practical, applied environment. Tinkering with it in a few cute team fights isn't 'testing' - the class needs to play to its strengths, and affliction classes generally like to fight alone because their momentum takes time to build.

    The class is clearly a duelist in a world where team combat is currently king. It will shine again when somebody intelligent picks it up and duels are more commonplace.

    tl;dr - Sure, back in Imperian's version of the Age of Legends, True Locks were cool and what you did. The game has evolved, and strategy needs to evolve too. Malignist is a workable class, and Infirmity was just what it needed.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • RiselithRiselith Member Posts: 3
    Well unfortunately being affliction based, we can't just spam the damage combos now can we. The problem lies within the complete random guessing to -hope- that you land an infirmity instead of buy them 1.5~2s to cure themselves of yet more afflictions. The suggestion offered by Kryss for this situation was to apply pressure enough to be akin to overwhelming/t-locking, instead of spamming the herb list of toxins/curses and trying to guess the right time to throw out an infirmity. This is battling not only purge, focus, tree and herb/smoke/salve, but the many different classes' abilities to passively heal or might/bloodboil/fitness. It's a little more complicated, so sure people are still working out how best to apply Infirmity. It's a work in progress and I see that it has potential so I'm not immediately denouncing it as underpowered or useless. However it doesn't take much to notice possible flaws.

    While I agree that forcing an automatic infirmity when they hit 3 afflictions would be overpowering. I didn't specify that it was 3 afflictions, just that it was a certain threshold. Given that none of the diabolist's afflictions are hidden in nature nor do they have any non-curable cure blocking abilities. There's quite a few skills that use this mechanic, druids' delayed empowerments, hunters' triggers and wytches' marks. I don't know the newer AM skills to say if they have any. However these weren't deemed to be overpowered.
  • XeronXeron Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    I appreciate misunderstanding basically everything I said and the passive aggression there in the reply, lol. Quality.
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Daegger hunt with metrazol/hemotoxin, run a deadeyes queue that looks something like this -> Breach, Paralysis(when not on cooldown), Impatience(might not be required), Asthma, Clumsy. Tracking plus a little guesswork will tell you when it's time to use infirmity. Though you'll not always be right, due to it being hard to account for purge and tree (as well as passive healing) you'll just have to go with making the educated guess. And you know what? Every affliction class has to suffer through guesswork, passive healing, might, fitness and so on and so forth. That's the name of the affliction game. I have just given an idea of how you could go about getting your first infirmity down. If it wasn't working, one could play around with it and tweak it as they saw fit. Obviously, when you wish to start draining mana you do not use wight's evileye, but rather sap and where available, leech (shadowstrike can really help out here). Now instead of complaining that everything in Demonic is weak, I think it's time that those doing the complaining went out and actually worked with the unique and wonderful skills that they have access to.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My only input for Infirmity buffs - make it similar to Overwhelm. If the target cannot be Infirmizeded, it just takes no balance and sends back a 'no luck, Joe' message.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    I would also suggest giving daegger hunt to give more chance to afflict with a toxin. I'd rather have a daegger that attacks at longer intervals and gives the toxins reliably than what it is now.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Sarrius hit this on the head. You can't afford guesswork with infirmity. It penalizes you for guessing wrong. That 'oops' in the course of 'guesswork' costs you balance, momentum and may make you start at square one. Generally, this is bad. Especially when 100% of your offense is based on active afflictions. Thank you for highlighting why infirmity is bad :P


    If anything positive comes out of infirmity, it's the fact that it highlights the complex problems that are inherent in the diabolist class.
  • XeronXeron Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    I had a bunch of stuff to write, but idk if it's needed. Only thing I do want to put down is the comparison between rebounding/curseward and the 'rebounding classes have been dealing with it for ages' etc.

    Rebounding has a hard counter in asthma. It also has a lesser counter in forcing pipe-cured affliction priority first, delaying rebounding coming up. It's also a somewhat finite resource (depending on how common those token pipes are, I assume most active combatants have 1 or 2), and can create further delay to refill an empty pipe.

    Curseward has no such counter. There is nothing to stop it. There is nothing that will create a longer time before the counter resets and one can re-def curseward again. 6 seconds after breach, you can put it back up, regardless of all other factors aside from getting balance back to do it. I definitely do not understand the comparison between the two.

    Edit: I'm not sure if I'm being misunderstood or misinterpreted as saying that curseward should not exist or some such. I agree with how it is, at least in regards to Diab. But I think, like rebounding, there should be some method to counter it as well.
  • KyrockKyrock Member Posts: 35 ✭✭
    curseward requires you to have eq and balance, so you can stop or slow it down giving the right afflictions and set up.
  • DraekorDraekor Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Here's an idea for a change to make daegger hunt reliable: change it so you can use it off-balance along with a single curse and get rid of the passive affliction per X second as it is now. That way you can deliver a toxin on demand + a mental aff. It would still rebound on aura and shield. Just a random thought.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Wasting time trying to block curseward from coming up means you're not stacking afflictions for other infirmities or afflictions that keep people from killing you.

    Also: G-bot is johnny on the spot with putting up curseward asap.
  • CadeyrnCadeyrn Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    Allow the Diabolist to encourage the Daegger to attack at either an increased rate, or increased accuracy for a short time.

    Allow the Diabolist to order the daegger to have a delayed strike with a certain toxin.

    Buff the Malignosis demons as such:

    Fiend - becomes frenzied and gives a status effect that decreases the effect of clotting defenses. With a nice CD.

    Nightmare - becomes frenzied and gives a status effect that gives a % fail on a cure... and gives a 3rd person message fail with what was failed and what was used.

    Bloodworms - instead of just stripping, the bloodworms uses a screech then applies a curing malus - purge, tree and focus are usable 25% slower than usual.

    Horror - no idea how to buff this to be useful.

  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Malignist and Wytch are the only affliction classes (Outrider too, technically) that get on demand access to every lock affliction. Malignist still has one of the fastest affliction rates in the game, and even post-nerf the best passive. I refuse to accept that in a game with 2.0s herb balance Malignist is in a bad place. The numbers just do not support it.

    Hunter may be better against garryn-bot, because it's less linear and has an abusrdly simple kill condition against a blind healer, but Hunter relies heavily on trigger for its affliction speed - and that is subject to the whims of the afflicted. Assassin can keep up with Malignist during the hypnosis snap timer, which also gives them athe much desired access to impatience, but the latter class loses less momentum to shields and rebounding plus has ways to leverage pipe smoking.

    Until someone actually known for afflicting picks up the class and tests it, I am hesitant to call the cards stacked against you. Like I said, the numbers simply do not support it..

  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Hunter also has a thirty second kill window-- If you don't get the kill in that window, you start over and try again. You can't keep the momentum quite like other affliction classes can.
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Hunter set up is incredibly simple and quick though. A hunter can set up brainmelt and go for it three times in the time I am setting up for hypnosis.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Only with the hallucinogen setup, which has to be pre-prepared. If you see it invoked, it's meant to be a fast kill-- A shield will stop it easily. My usual setup takes quite a bit longer. It's powerful in the momentum it has, but its momentum peters out quickly and takes up to fifteen seconds to reset, in which not much offensive action is going on for the Hunter.

    It only looks simple due to how much the current Hunters have worked at it and tested and retested their stuff to make it work. And, as you proved, it really still doesn't work half the time when a shield is dropped in the middle, forcing the fifteen second reset.

    Most of the original kills made by people, and the kills going on now are due to people not understanding how to prioritize healing against Hunters. Risca's proved time and time again that curing priorities against Hunters makes it extraordinarily difficult to pull anything off at all.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hunters were designed with autocuring as the baseline. They will naturally beat people in that field. The solution if you want more control is to write your own system or incorporate the aspects of curing queues in to a rudimentary system of your own.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • KyrockKyrock Member Posts: 35 ✭✭

    Ahkan said:
    Wasting time trying to block curseward from coming up means you're not stacking afflictions for other infirmities or afflictions that keep people from killing you.

    Also: G-bot is johnny on the spot with putting up curseward asap.
    You do both at the same time. Slowing down eq regain will slow down people that are attacking you. If I were diablost I'd keep up confusion and have my first two toxin deliveries be oxalis then hemo,cigua. Then with eq being zapped(bloodworms) I'd be able to get rid of fitness and can lock in hellsight for longer and do what/ev from there.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Oxalis doesn't headfake Gbot. Daegger is 30%. Build an entire offense than depends on a 1/3 chance to succeed. Hope this 1/3 chance syncs up at the precise moment a passive, killable entity steals equilibrium. All while being hit. If this works, hope that the 30% offense strikes again, sticks an affliction that is a priority cure. Problem is, I'm not using confusion anymore...oops, they're hitting me again while they cure hellsight with focus. Oops.
  • KyrockKyrock Member Posts: 35 ✭✭
    oxalis doesn't headfake gbot? Yet, you have to hope 1/3 chance syncs up with worms? If gbot doesn't make deaf a top prioroty then they're going to have hearing long enough to allow for a viable window for worms to steal eq.If it becomes a priority, then affliction/s is raised.

    Breach, paralysis, impatience, confusion, stupidity, asthma, slickness, anorexia would be my affliction queue. I'd likely have to add in some junk mandrake and wormwood affs, but I don't see why you'd stop using confusion to stop eq regain or impatience to stop focus.

    Does this stop people from hitting you? Nope. Will it slow people down(killing their d/s and/or a/s) and slow down curseward? yes. And, once hellsight sets in(it will be cured the first few times it's afflicted, as with all afflictions), your affs/s will be raised and by this time their cures/s will decline. It builds on itself, which is always what I aim for when I construct an offense.
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Having paralysis so early in your queue is not that great of an idea due to new cooldown.
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