Population?

Zaveesi

I've been back for a few days, so possibly I've just hit an insanely low spike but.. whoa, where the flock did all the people go? 

I see the admin has started dealing with AFKers, but people are somewhat required for activity. I can fish and bash to my cold, dark heart's content, but eventually I'd like to RP in some direction or another. 

Is it really as dead as it seems? Is there some plan to combat this?  

Jules

Zaveesi I've seen you about (hi).  I forget if you are in the circle ring or not.  If you aren't, might want to ask.  We do try to grab people and invite them, but honestly, sometimes people actually don't want to join (which is fine, but I think is part of why we sort of try not to be overly forward about it).  Antioch definitely isn't dead.

Zaveesi

The population is dead. 

Antioch used to have more people on regularly than I'm seeing in the entire QW.  I'm talking more about numbers right now than the activity of those numbers. 

I'm not in the circle ring though I will also say it's a little odd to require people to be in an OOC ring to interact with others. That seems tremendously immersion breaking for those few who still actually like to RP. 

Jules

Well, I definitely would not say that there is no RP in Imperian (there is actually a lot, but it is often a different KIND of RP than in many games, at least what I see in AM/Antioch is).  Also, the game is very combat oriented (which I love), and the sort of nearly absolute immersion approach that seems to be pretty much the rule in most MUDs IS sort of flipped on its head here, at least in Antioch, yes (which I also love).  Mind you, this doesn't mean we're saying all sorts of silly things in public, but yes, we are probably having some fun discussions on ring that are not "how art thou this fine day, Lord So and So"?  It is possible you will just hate it, but you might like it!  

Zaveesi

I know your general opinion of RP, Jules. I do RP, and I don't expect the entire world to RP. I personally dislike being in active OOC channels because I end up spending more time treating the game like it's a chat room than actually playing the game. That is only tangentially related to my point, which is about whether or not a max population of 20ish is normal, and if the admin has plans to combat that. 

Even if I was only playing to engage in combat, that is still a concerning population. An active population is pretty essential to enjoying most aspects of any IRE game. 

Zaveesi

Also, FYI, 'immersion breaking' need not be about RP. It's anything that pulls you out of the game world. You can have immersion breaking issues in one player games. My dude is running around with a light saber in Fallout. (Yay, mods). That's immersion breaking.

Jules

I RP too  It is just that the RP here is different than many MUDs (and I really like it).  Anyway, if you are interested in playing in Antioch, maybe it is not as big as the glory days that some people remember, but there IS an active, vibrant population to interact with, so I don't think there is a need to be overly doom and gloom.  

Zaveesi

You are flying past my point repeatedly. 

This popualtion is extremely low. Apparently it's normal now. Which leads to my next question. Does anyone have a plan in motion to bring more bodies into the game? What's it look like? 

Zaveesi

Also, 30 people divided by 6 factions is pretty slim pickings for RP, combat, crafting, politics, or any activity you want to engage in. 30 people divided by 18 guilds is one person and a midget (dwarf?) per guild. That's not good for the health of the game. 

Edit: Except fishing and bashing. Which I've been occupying my time with. Less people is good for me right now. <.<

Wysrias

It's a comparative lull right now. People wax and wane in activity, and since there haven't been any significant updates to either storyline or combat in awhile, it's likely a waning phase. Expect more people around when there's a big release (looking at you, wardancer beta) or the conflict with Urzog reaches its next stage.

There's RP to be had, especially if you're willing to cross circle boundaries. People are fickle and momentum is a real thing, though, so sometimes you have to really push for activity.

Khizan

Imperian probably has the lowest population of the IRE games.

There are several factors at play here.

• For years we were the 'wild west' of IRE games as far as PvP rules went, in that our PvP rules were basically non-existent. This drove down population because getting involved in anything meant you'd get hunted a dozen times over.
• There was a long period of time where our admin went AWOL and we basically bled out half the playerbase and stagnated, and we've never really recovered from that because the nature of IRE games is that investment in one game makes it less likely you'll switch to another.
• Our skilled staff always seems to end up working side projects. Jeremy is our Producer AND the IRE President. Garryn is our coder AND he does the IRE client. 

One thing I'd sort of like to see is a migration incentive. Maybe a one-time deal where players from the more populous IRE games can cash in a character there to get the same amount of credits on a brand new character here or something similar. 

Rali

That seems to be a very true statement (really push for activity).  While there is much chatter within the ring (Kinsarmar citizen here), it's mostly of an OOC nature or a technical nature (scripts, skills and the like) with the occasional update/call to action regarding shards, caravans, and shrines.

 However, do to the the small population it is difficult for me  to really get involved in the combat aspect of the game. I am just learning and I am just too slow, clueless or something to really get enough of a footing to hang with the big boys and girls.

So, to answer the original question about the population, in general it is pretty low, which makes for some difficulty trying to find people around my learning curve to actually play/interact/RP with. 

Iniar

You're the best, Rali.

Khizan

Rali said:

However, do to the the small population it is difficult for me  to really get involved in the combat aspect of the game. I am just learning and I am just too slow, clueless or something to really get enough of a footing to hang with the big boys and girls.

If you want to try getting into combat as a lowbie, try playing a character in either the demonic or anti-magick circles. The magick circle has a punishing lack of combat leadership and they're correspondingly both unwilling to fight and pretty bad at making use of available resources when they do fight. 

Once you hit about L50 or so, I guarantee you that either Demonic or Anti-Magick could work you into combat group without a problem as long as you're okay with dying instantly as soon as they decide to target you.

Zaveesi

I made Zaveesi initially because AM is way better about helping out combat newbs. Then I got distracted and quit playing her. Magic has -always- been terrible about combat instruction. 

The absolute nature of the factions makes it a little challenging to cross circles for interaction, since everything is combat-focused, fraternizing with the enemy is a quick way to get a head stomped in. And Zav isn't anywhere near scary enough to intimidate people into letting her get away with crap. 

I'd be down for antagonistic cross-faction RP, if folks wanna kick start something. 

I dig the idea of incentivizing migration, but it's not going to happen anymore than 'retiring' characters and recouping a portion of your investment to build a new character is going to happen. 

Rali

@Khizan I die running to help out with caravans, so yeah, dying does not bother me at all.  If I am dying at least it means I am involved, which is what is most important to me. Last time I tried to help out in a shrine conflict, I got a bounty placed on my head. Most fun I had in a long time - wandering around the shops at Caanae and got jumped for the bounty by Fensrun. She kicked my butt real good and fast. I am sure the fight must have bored her to death but hell it was fun for me.

I am totally not dumping on Kinsarmar though because I have gotten to know some really neat people there. However, as of recently it is getting kind of hard to jump in game when I know the most interaction I am going to have is slapping about some orcs. 

Khizan

Zaveesi said:

And Zav isn't anywhere near scary enough to intimidate people into letting her get away with crap. 

As far as I'm concerned you can talk with magickers and be friends with them all you want, I don't care about that at all as long as you're not textsexing them, you're not helping them with city defenses, and it doesn't interfere with your willingness to kill them. 

Jules

Zaveesi said:

The absolute nature of the factions makes it a little challenging to cross circles for interaction, since everything is combat-focused, fraternizing with the enemy is a quick way to get a head stomped in. And Zav isn't anywhere near scary enough to intimidate people into letting her get away with crap. 

You're right that this can be tricky.  We actually had a kid fairly upset about this sort of thing ... From his standpoint, someone who is basically a top flight combatant got into what seemed like some good-natured banter with him, and when he responded in kind, the person promptly took "offense" and killed him.  Of course, if you're up for that, it's fine (and as long as there is some end to it, it's really probably just not the end of the world in general).  But the kid felt sucker-punched, and, as was explained to us (by Khizan in fact) there is a bit of a hierarchy with that kind of stuff, so if you go around being "cocky" you're probably going to get your butt handed to you - what sucks though, is when the "boss" jokes around with you, and then you joke back, and he lops your head off (again, unless you're down for that kind of thing).  All of that said, I bet if you talked to people, and hammered out a basic understanding, they'd be willing to have a rivalry of sorts with you, and you could go from there. 

I dig the idea of incentivizing migration, but it's not going to happen anymore than 'retiring' characters and recouping a portion of your investment to build a new character is going to happen. 

Khizan might have been aiming a bit high, but sometimes, IRE players are just AWFUL about advocating for their interests (which in some cases, really do align with IRE's).  "Oh no, we could just never ask for that"  In many, many cases:  Ask!  At least ask!  And when a reasonable amount of time has passed, heck, ask again!  If you aren't asking, they usually have no reason to consider - except for the occasional instance where, for example, they do a self audit and realize a particular artifact just isn't selling, for example, and lower the price - or in some cases, raise it because they're pretty sure it will still sell like hotcakes.  

Rali

Another huge problem which may also speak to the low population is just how difficult it is to just strike up  a conversation with anyone within your own Circle/City.  It just seems like a lot of times people are either dreamy or just not interested in investing in conversation with newer/younger players.  

Regardless of how many times I try to stir up conversation with people in my own city I am often met with a polite nod or silence.  Thankfully, there are a few people that I know I can go to to find conversation; however, the silence is deafening at times.  Even our city channel is quiet the majority of the time I am awake and in game. There just does not seem to be anything happening and/or it's all happening and I just have no clue how to become part of what ever is happening. 

Hmm, won't fraternizing (IC'ly) with other Circles get you kicked from your City/Circle??

Wysrias

Rali said:

Hmm, won't fraternizing (IC'ly) with other Circles get you kicked from your City/Circle??

As long as it's not in the middle of a combat objective, it wouldn't make any sense to do that. I certainly wouldn't do it in Khandava. The game is small enough without having to make it smaller.

Zaveesi

The relaxation on cross-faction RP is a nice thing to know. That has not always been the case.

I don't really have the problem of the kid you are referencing, Jules. I know how to not smack talk people who can squish my character (or when a character is going to be lippy, they are prepared to deal with the consequences. Either by running -really fast- or taking the punishment).
 
I was thinking something more along the lines of faction-centered RP. Before the Gods died, I had a slip of a girl who was a very devout Antiochian that I had plans to take on a preaching tour with a guardian or two to keep her from getting squashed in a heartbeat. The intention being to stir up a little trouble and conflict with the opportunity for both RPers and PKers to get in on it. 

Zav isn't the sort to do something like that. I'm sure I could come up with something  but if I spend enough time on it, I can probably come up with something suitable for Zav's personality. 

I'm a big fan of 'if nothing's happening, make something happen'. It's just hard to do that when nobody's around to do it with. Or when they -are- around, they don't ever respond. Or you'll get the one word answer/nod. 

Khizan

Rali said:

Another huge problem which may also speak to the low population is just how difficult it is to just strike up  a conversation with anyone within your own Circle/City.  It just seems like a lot of times people are either dreamy or just not interested in investing in conversation with newer/younger players.  

One thing that I see a lot of people do is an exchange that goes a lot like this:

Player A: "So, how are you?"
Player B: "Fine, you?"
Player A: "I'm good."

And, well, that's that, no conversation. This is because asking another player "how are you?" is the PC version of doing "greet <mobile>" on every named NPC you see, hoping that they'll reward a generic prompt with interaction.

If you want an actual conversation, ask about something that actually requires an answer. 

Rali said:

Hmm, won't fraternizing (IC'ly) with other Circles get you kicked from your City/Circle??

  This depends on the city/circle,and on how you do it. I recently threw an Antiochian out of the city for 'fraternizing' with Magick, but this was because the fraternization consisted of "spend all day in their magick mudsex palace." There are really just three things that will get you thrown out, as far as fraternization goes.

1. Does it interfere with your willingness to kill them? I don't mean "I like Airelle, she may take that monolith", I mean does it interfere with your willingness to participate in organization related fights? Statue battles, shardfalls, caravans, city raiding, etc.
2. Are you sleeping with the enemy? I will warn you about this once and then just throw you out. 
3. Are you helping the enemy in a way that is likely to be detrimental to the city?

If the answer to all three questions is "No", you're safe as far as I am concerned.

Iniar

It is really hard to get excited about Imperian when nothing is happening. I know administration have said that we should write our own stories, and they have been releasing areas and lore about the new races; but a lack of an actual presence in the realms, and a lack of a strong thematic thrust with the ongoing dilution of the 'three' 'factions' means that people lose interest quickly. 

While it is all fair to push the onus on the players to generate day-to-day roleplay, it is also more likely that said person(s) will just type 'quit'. 

I'm honestly not trying to criticise administration here - that said, odds on, people are going to quit rather than put in effort. The failure of the administration to provide a continuously evolving hook is a sure-fire way to keep people pressing that quit button. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that that is much more likely to happen with each individual player.

The lack of organic interaction through the actual representatives of the game (NPCs) also create a sense of a world of mechanics rather than a live, immersive environment. You can throw 6 players together to have a desktop D&D adventure, but without an excellent Dungeon Master, you have a bunch of friends just hanging out pretending to be dwarves.

There are -enough- areas in the game. I would prefer a more organic interaction rather than the release of a new area. For example, the 15 minutes Svorai took to give me my Primal markings really made my day and made me look forward to logging in. Sadly, interaction like that is extremely sparse. Why hang around when the average Joe can get much more stimulus in almost any other game?

Again, I'm not saying it's the wrong policy; it's just more likely to turn people away. You can't expect a high retention rate when you create an environment and ask people to generate the (actual) content without giving them the appropriate tools.

Elokia

So what I am hearing is, I should just blow up 3 cities/councils? Yes?

Kidding,

All that aside, I will only speak on one point for now, as I'm walking out the door.

I do know that the story has taken a small drag since the release of Alekmanhala/Magma Vents, unfortunately, that is because I have been on vacation/family visits/etc.

With that said, I have a lot planned over the next year and hope I can push this stuff out for you guys fast enough.

And as always, you're more than welcomed to e-mail me or message me if you have requests/ideas for the game/your circle.

We are always looking to push circle rp forward as well, but it is not always easy for us "admin" to do so, as the Rp of the city/council/circle can be very specific that we don't always see the details. So send me a line if you need anything. (Elokia@Imperian.com)

Also - if you guys have not seen it yet, there is a story in Magma Vents that gives AM more purpose than "Hur hur God power." This explains how they get their "power" without Divine (and how they were able to do so always.)

Zaveesi

@Iniar - That's why I'm asking after the population, honestly. 

My absolute favorite thing to do in this game is to create things that get other people engaged. It's -really- hard to do that with a low population. All the administration support and player direction in the world can't make up for missing people. 

@Elokia - All of that is awesome but didn't really answer my main question with regards to this thread. Do you know if there's any push to recruit players planned or ongoing? 

Wysrias

Elokia said:

So what I am hearing is, I should just blow up 3 cities/councils? Yes?

Kidding,

My heart jumped in glee, then sunk in disappointment. (A tiny playerbase split across 6 organizations is probably one of the biggest retention killers)

Elokia

Zaveesi said:

@Iniar - That's why I'm asking after the population, honestly. 

My absolute favorite thing to do in this game is to create things that get other people engaged. It's -really- hard to do that with a low population. All the administration support and player direction in the world can't make up for missing people. 

@Elokia - All of that is awesome but didn't really answer my main question with regards to this thread. Do you know if there's any push to recruit players planned or ongoing? 

We are constantly doing work with pushing out more ads and things like that, but the truth of the matter is, the MUD community is getting smaller. It's not just Imperian that is taking a hit, other IRE games are as well, with the exception of Achaea. We are always looking for more ways to get new players.

Wysrias

I don't think that's necessarily true. Advances in technology have made MUDs much more accessible to visually impaired players, and it's reflected in how the fine details and QoL features of each game have evolved. The niche has always been small, but I don't think it's shrinking so much as it's changing.

The biggest killer is momentum - you need motivated leaders to drive organizations and give people a reason to log in, and you need updates/tweaks to the game itself to keep the mechanics fresh and interesting. I am sure there's plenty on the horizon for the latter, but if I were to offer an honest critique, I would say that Imperian would benefit from more frequent updates, even if they're smaller, and more frequent discussions with the playerbase. There are plenty of perfectly valid reasons for why these exchanges feel very slow on both ends, but that doesn't change their impact.

Jeremy Saunders

We are definitely down a bit more then normal this summer. We usually get people coming back in the next month or so as school starts to set in.

Skasha

Rali said:

Words

You just have to find the right people. That's important. Imperian is small enough that you need to go out of your way to find people. When I'm around I try to poke you unless I'm exhausted.

What Khizan said was true. Imperian was allowed to stagnate for a long time.

I also think that the changes to the amount of places a player can exist are a big part of it. Once upon a time magick had Kinsarmar, Celidon and Khandava and the player base was pretty spread out. Anti-magick just had Antioch and it was absolutely packed. Demonic just had Stavenn, and it was packed as well. Then AM got Ithaqua, which was okay because the player base was high back then and it came with a few new classes. However demonic got split up as the playerbase was shrinking. Further the guilds were so numerous that their one final big job, mentoring novices, was just so hard to do that you couldn't mentor them because rarely anyone was around to do it. Small guilds aren't allowed to die off despite threats to the contrary.

So yeah, the playerbase is small, but it looks even smaller because there are too many cities and too many guilds for too small a playerbase. There may be activity, but it appears like there is less activity than there actually is because we're all so spread out.

Ailish

I think the amount of orgs should be cut by roughly one half.

Why the hell not? Just the culling process will be an event that will generate activity.

If the number of players ever goes up, these orgs can be revived, which, again, will be an event that generates activity