Split Discussion - Guildhall Protection

Eoghan

This discussion was created from comments split from: Improving Imperian.

Sumie

Couple House Suggestions,

House Bank -  A room add-on that lets you deposit gold into your HOUSE FUNDS. It is already easy to store your gold in your house funds by using a chef and setting the price to whatever you want to deposit and buying said item. It a safe way to store gold since only the house owner can access it. Anyways just a more convenient way of putting gold into it. 

Vanity Pets - Allow vanity pets to be placed around in your house and not return to your inventory. It would be nice to be able to give your house a bit of life and activity from this, plus give a bit more use for vanity pets. 

Also please allow guildhalls to make use of protection addon. It is really a pain since no activity can go on inside of a guildhall without the almost guaranteed attempt to break into it. It makes it a pain to tell novices and newbies not to go into a guildhall, and leaves guildhalls pretty much useless out of fear of using them.

Khizan

But if you make it impossible for me to break into a guildhall it gets a lot harder to kill people in their guildhall.

Kanthari

As they are, there doesn't seem to be much point in having them. The Tzolkin's is effectively a several million gold goldsink that we never use for security reasons. Everyone learns from Lyria. Kind of frustrating given the amount of time and effort we put into it.

Khizan

Realistically, most guild populations are so small that you'd be better off with everybody learning from the city tutor because that's where they're the most likely to encounter other players anyways.

Kryss

Protection is really annoying. It's no fun when it's in every room of every house. Adding this to guildhalls too? No thank you.

Jules

First of all, while I have no plans of buying a house here in Imperian, the only way I would ever consider purchasing a house, is if it were nearly impossible to break in to.  That is my viewpoint as a "buyer".  As a "raider" of course I agree that any and all protections are super annoying and should be immediately scrapped  I feel somewhat the same about guild halls, although with the house of course, many people use it to store things they consider valuable, and do not want taken, period.  I make it a point to never loiter in guild halls in any IRE game because someone might break in.  They might break in even if I am sitting right there.  Over in Achaea, I had a guy break in to my house once.  I didn't have my responses automated, but I did succeed in locking the guy in my house.  With no appropriate prism target, he quickly left.  I actually thought it was pretty cool and exciting, especially since he was "bargaining" with me for an item (which was resetting anyway, but whee, it was cool).  At first.  And then my city had a hissy fit because I was totally honest and warned them that the guy had got in, but that he was locked in my house etc... They lectured me and made a permanent record of the thing - and that was nothing personal, that is just their way.  But that is where this tends to go eventually.  With guild halls too.  100%.  What happens is, you have people no kidding hard core AFK in a place like that.  Raiders get in, cause conflict that the city wasn't really up for.  It happens enough that rules get made, or at the VERY least people learn by convention "don't loiter in these places, period - even if you are not AFK, it's probably not a good idea".  So now, you have the guild hall, and everyone stays the hell out of there, because everyone knows you don't actually hang out in a guild hall are you insane?

Ailish

This is the best solution

Sumie said:

Ailish said:

Could we please make achievement bonuses toggleable? I am out of short achievement bonuses and I hate activating the long ones because I feel it locks me into bashing for their duration, which means that if for whatever reason I can't bash, I'd rather log out altogether than waste precious precious double xp time. Would be much better if I could deactivate it and bank the remainder for later

I'd actually like to see them all as 1h bonuses. So when you'd get a 12h bonus you would get 12 1h bonuses. You would then ACHIEVEMENT BONUS ACTIVATE # to get the amount of hours you want of your pool of hours.

Khizan

I am very 'eh' on making protection even more widespread. I'd much rather just give guildhall guild guards or something like that.

Sumie

You've already stated about how low population for guilds are. I wouldn't think guild guards would be very helpful, since the current guard system requires someone online with guard commanding powers to make guards relevant. Unless changes were to be made for guards i do not think this would work out(where guards would actively seek out the person in the guildhall).

Guildhalls has a lot of use to them, made useless by raiding. Libraries, tutors, and pretty much any addons cannot be used without fear of letting in the enemy. Raiding guildhalls actively destroys any RP able to be had in them.(And you know that when you have a group RPing in a guildhall Kryss or someone is going to raid it to harass. Because that is all Kryss is, a harassment.)

Kanthari

@Khizan and I talked a while back about the possible implementation of guild guards. I think it could be a neat addition. I'm not sure if potentially adding more guards to the city and allowing them to be placed in guildhalls may be an alternative or if that'd open up other problems.

I understand that protection being made guildhall-wide wouldn't be fun for potential raiders. I'd counter that as they stand, guildhalls aren't fun for anyone. @Aleutia and I worked for almost a year to revise the Tzolkin and ours has unique mobs with dialogue, a little shop, and a quest that can be done inside it. These bells and whistles are useless if no one can risk going there.

Ideally, there should be a balance between the two. I don't think anyone who actively PvPs is going to want guildhalls to be 100% unraidable. I don't think anyone who just wants to RP is keen to do so in an area with zero defenses.

Aakrin

Guildhalls are made useless, for the amusement for a very select few. I think that's bad design. Guards would make it a little bit better, maybe, but it'd till have a lot of the same issues. Especially if that just turned Guildhalls into bashing grounds for bored jerks.

A sideways approach might be to disallow plane-wide invasion techniques to enter guildhalls, but allow area-wide techniques to work. I'm not sure it'd be much better than guards, but at least it'd open the invasion up to defense from active members of the city before the hall gets invaded.

While I agree that a middle ground would be best, if its going to be all or nothing it currently stands in the wrong way for all or nothing. I'd rather see guildhalls usable and safe, than cater to a small group of people that make guildhalls useless out of boredom.

Jules

If I was protected from repercussions from my org (far less of a worry in my current org, as things stand this September of 2015), I would be totally fine with being rekt in my guildhall here in Imperian.  I'd certainly be fine with the occasional invasion.  It is the org repercussions that I fear, and that does seem to hold generally true even over here in Imperian.  Guards in a guildhall could be alright if they simply repopped.  Otherwise, absolutely, raiders are going to kill them from time to time, and especially in a small game where the cost of replacement can really sting, there are going to be bad feelings, and whoever "brought this upon the org" is going to be the bad guy. 

Khizan

To clarify, I would not want extra city guards, because no city is going to use them to cover a guildhall. I would want guildhalls to get their own guards. Since guilds generally don't have any kind of economy to speak of, I would not expect the guards to be like city guards in that they need to be repurchased every time they're killed. Maybe something like an initial purchasing cost and then they respawn after death from then on out, perhaps.

Strengthwise, I'd rather just make a handful of stupidly powerful guards than have a horde of weaker ones. That is to say, I'd rather have Septus and I get trashed by a Wytch healer and two deathknights that hit like 300 damage trucks than have us get trashed by 4 healers and 12 deathknights that hit like 50 damage trucks. From a practical perspective, this just neatens things up and you don't need to have 15 guards sitting with the teacher or in the ritual room or whatnot. They might be a bit easier to kill than a swarm, but honestly? If Septus and I can bash them to death with any kind of reliability, just make them hit harder and harder until we can't do it anymore, I'm cool with that.

From an RP vantage, the 'big single guard' could let a guild potentially customize all their guards, so that Kanthari could create 10-15 unique looking guards instead of having Generic Deathknight Guards #142-154. Name them, give them dialogue, whatever. Involve them in guild quests or whatnot, etc.

My big thing is just that I would almost always prefer an active defense of some sort over a passive block that just flat out blocks conflict.

Dicene

Give guilds an opportunity to turn existing mobs(tutors, etc) into super-potent guild guards and you've got a great idea there. Actually, it's probably a great idea anyway.

Jules

I realize this is beyond the scope of guildhall guards, but I still think it would be a step in the right direction for everyone if guards got a "paycheck" and repopped in general.  Respawn time would be a big consideration, from the standpoint of both raiders and orgs, but what I like about having guards repop is that there is far less reason for players to be outright pissed off when a city, council, or towne is raided and they lose guards.  

Also, a sort of question/clarification.  I thought I had understood that here in Imperian, it was actually the intent of admin to make cities/councils essentially unraidable (actual raids, not people outside the gates asking if you want to come play with them), while townes are supposed to be much less well defended, even with optimal setup?  And I thought the rationale behind that was this:  raiders always decide the time and place, while the people being raided might not be up for defending at all, for a host of reasons.  Is that the case or not (and that is a question for admin)?

Sumie

Honestly, guildhalls and places in general are just too easy to raid and break into. And there is a significant difference between fun pvp and harassing others because you're bored and you know they can't really do much about it. The raid just brings too much hassle to the guild, with dealing with city policies and what not. I would rather see protection, make raiding a guild actually hard for example stealing a key, following someone in, traitors and whatnot that actually comes with RP than oops i sat in a room too long and they have realm-wide prism with no counters other than pay attention every second of being in the guildhall. If it is a choice between being in the guildhall and being forced to pay attention every second or  relaxing and being able to do things IRL too then it is a pretty easy choice. Raiding as it stands is just far too easy. 

If we do go with the guild guards idea, i would like to see guildhalls have their own area. Such as you enter Kinsarmar go to the animists guildhall and when you enter the guildhall you are now in the "Animists Guildhall Area" so that cities cannot complain about having enemies in the guildhall as it does not effect them. 

Jules

Sumie said:

Honestly, guildhalls and places in general are just too easy to raid and break into. And there is a significant difference between fun pvp and harassing others because you're bored and you know they can't really do much about it. The raid just brings too much hassle to the guild, with dealing with city policies and what not. I would rather see protection, make raiding a guild actually hard for example stealing a key, following someone in, traitors and whatnot that actually comes with RP than oops i sat in a room too long and they have realm-wide prism with no counters other than pay attention every second of being in the guildhall. If it is a choice between being in the guildhall and being forced to pay attention every second or  relaxing and being able to do things IRL too then it is a pretty easy choice. Raiding as it stands is just far too easy. 

If we do go with the guild guards idea, i would like to see guildhalls have their own area. Such as you enter Kinsarmar go to the animists guildhall and when you enter the guildhall you are now in the "Animists Guildhall Area" so that cities cannot complain about having enemies in the guildhall as it does not effect them. 

I was considering a separate area as well, for much the same reasons.  That said, I didn't throw it out there because I am very much on the fence about how it would actually play out.  It could mean that once enemies got in, your "friendlies" (assuming they were around), could have a harder time coming to the rescue.  Maybe it is the right approach though.  I'd definitely want to hear from lots of people about how they think it would play out in practice.  But the "org gets pissy about people actually using their areas because mechanics make it a liability" thing is real (in all games from what I can tell), and I'm glad people seem to recognize that as something that will have to be dealt with if we want people to be able to use those areas.