Split Discussion - Shardfall Incentives

Eoghan

This discussion was created from comments split from: Improving Imperian.

Ohm

Quest XP gain for harvesting shards.

Considering shards take 10 seconds each to harvest, have the possibility of getting you killed - would it be possible to provide small quest XP gains for harvesting shards. 

After all the research is done and there isn't really too much other incentive for harvesting shards, this may provide a little more incentive to encourage more people to go to shardfalls. 

Jules

Ohm said:

Quest XP gain for harvesting shards.

Considering shards take 10 seconds each to harvest, have the possibility of getting you killed - would it be possible to provide small quest XP gains for harvesting shards. 

After all the research is done and there isn't really too much other incentive for harvesting shards, this may provide a little more incentive to encourage more people to go to shardfalls. 

I am so torn on this (and anything of a similar nature).  The problem is, we already have people at shard falls who really, truly, are there ONLY for the shards, and... often, not even for the shards per se, from what I've gleaned, but because they feel they absolutely must eventually tick achievement box whatever.  If you're lucky, they'll even tell you point blank "I wish I could just harvest".  And you know, if they were actually low on shards (say, because the system was working almost too well and people were going "crap, am I going to be able to shard heal"?), I'd be like, "you know, as long as people are willing to fight, do we actually want to deny the "losers" stuff like that?  Because hey, they're already losing.  Are we really going to set things up so that the side that has Septus is probably also the only side with reliable access to shard abilities"?

But that is not what is going on with this right now.  Right now there are often two kinds of people at nearly any shardfall unless you are extremely lucky.  Bored AM and a few magickers who are absolutely -obsessed- with getting some achievement.  I actually kind of wish there weren't any shard achievements, beyond the first few low ones, because some of the people who really aren't fun to chase off/kill (I really do think both AM and demonic almost feel like "okay, let's draw straws, loser has to chase/kill her" at this point), and who have no desire to fight, probably wouldn't be there so often.  For the time being, you can just go to unattended shard falls, for the most part, if you are truly low on shards, and aren't trying to get some far off achievement.  If it weren't for achievements, I feel like these people wouldn't have to deal with the stress of being in a situation they really have no interest in (combat), and we wouldn't have to deal with people who find shard falls in no way exciting in and of themselves.  

Because that is the problem, right there at the beginning, as you say shard falls "have the possibility of getting you killed".  That is seriously supposed to be the -fun- part.  Now at some point, heck no you should not keep going back over and over and giving another team cheap kills if they're winning hard, but really, even if you did, you aren't losing too much.  In so many games, you'd have to worry about losing XP, but you really don't in Imperian, and that's the point.  And sure, reserves are useful, but they still feel like a small enough buff that I don't -really- have to worry about my precious PK XP (and it's certainly better if I don't).  I mean, really, the only reason I'd want to "deny" people kills is because I don't like them and/or feel they're being asshats.  Otherwise, I love going back and dying gloriously several times if it comes to it.  And in a sense, if the other side has been losing a lot, I would even go so far as to say I don't mind a bunch of AM deaths boosting their egos/confidence.  So that they'll come play next time.  

The possibility of getting jumped (or doing the jumping) is actually the point of shard falls, though.  The main reason admin adds carrots in sometimes, is because people are... tricky, and you have to try to trick them into doing fun things.  What you really want is to have them realize at some point, to at least some degree, that participating in the actual system is fun.  But maybe it's not fun for them, but they still want the carrot, because that carrot is irresistible to them.  But AM (for the time being, especially if you are Magick) is always there guarding all of the delicious carrots, and, even if you had an inkling that fighting itself could actually be fun, it seems -impossible- that you could beat their asses at least sometimes, and that is certainly not fun.  Now, some players (unfortunately the ones who tend to at shard falls right now), are not even in that category.  They really are the last people you'd ever convince that fighting itself is fun.  It might not be impossible, but it's improbable.  So you have the absolute extremes at shard falls - people who would fight over a stick of gum, and people who pretty much hate combat.  This is all a very long way of saying that "hey, quest XP for harvesting might be a good incentive" or "it might just make a kind of bad situation worse (probably not much worse, though)".  

Jules

What part do you disagree with so strongly Caelya?  I mean, what would you like to see and why do you think active participation in shardfalls is so low lately?  

Caelya

When I joined Imperian, I'd already had significant experience with other MUDs, non-IRE. Most of them were heavily roleplay oriented and I never really got into player killing. It could be because of the elitist attitude a lot of player killers I'd encountered held, or any number of other things. Regardless, when I started Caelya, I had no intention of doing much at all with PK, especially since Imperian has a uniquely complex combat system. I'd never done a moment of coding before in my life.

 But then I learned about shard falls, a unique opportunity to go out with your 'team' and gather weird sky candy that gave you special powers. Some people gathered, other people defended, and the most amazing thing that I learned was that conflict that happened at a shardfall stayed there. I didn't have to worry about (most) people harassing me when I was trying to roleplay or bash or whatever outside of shardfalls because of this. That meant, to me, that shardfalls were a great way to try to work with my team, and eventually try to actually do better at killing people in a team environment. I bothered certain people about the very basics of coding and learned enough to be helpful. I may not have turned into super amazing ultimate PKer extreme, but I had fun and felt good about trying, even when my team failed.

When shard research stopped being a motivating factor across each of the circles, though, shardfalls lost a lot of their initial draw for a lot of people, I think, because they were working towards a greater goal in their circle. I personally stopped going every single time for this reason, among others.

Because of the current loss of reasons to go to shardfalls, I feel like every single reason we can imagine would be a great option. So what if people want to be there for achievements, or to fuel their skills, or for a little quest exp? It gets people on the field, and if enough of them are there to form an opposition, maybe they'll endeavor to be less newbish like I did. No, this won't always be the case, but shardfalls for me are a beloved, revolutionary activity, and if you get even one or two more people interested in other facets of the game than they are accustomed to (not griefing), you've done something right.

Jules

Hrm.  Okay.  I think we have misunderstood each other somehow.  I definitely want people to participate in shard falls, and in many ways, I am in the same boat, at least in the sense that if PK here were truly elitist, I would be excluded.  I do think we have different feelings about how fun/important PK is, but there is that.  The problem I have been seeing, is that the shard achievement carrots (the many many thousands of shards ones, mostly), for example, seem to have a weird effect.  They seem to be -most- attractive people who absolutely HATE combat, and who come hoping to harvest as much as they can, and basically wish people would just leave them alone so they could do that.  I do think that we'd be better off if there were still some kind of organizational goals, beyond individual things like achievements, and that that will be (and has been) a better carrot overall (as long as it doesn't give one side an even more overwhelming advantage), and hopefully something we might see later in the year if I remember the "this is what we've got planned this year" right.

Anette

So basically ... "don't give people another incentive to participate in shard-falls because the wrong people might participate"?

That seems self-defeating, at best.

Jules

Sometimes I feel like I am accidentally posting in (bad) Russian... No, it is not that the wrong people might participate, it is that people who truly have zero interest in actually participating are "participating".  Some of the people we see most at shardfalls feel they absolutely MUST get the shards/gazillion shard achievements.  At the same time, it's really clear that they view any sort of combat that might happen as nothing but a PITA.  A few of them might feel differently if they were in an absolutely huge team that was going to absolutely and unquestionably curb stomp the other side pretty much every time, even though they dislike PK with a passion - mainly because PK ranking is another number you can make go up. 

Some people are just incredibly goal driven, which is fine, but the way it plays out in shard falls, in particular with the gazillion shard achievements, is that there is this situation where I think everyone is sort of miserable.  The people who "just want to harvest" are sort of miserable, and the people who chase them off/kill them are sort of miserable (because it really isn't fun killing them).  I don't really enjoy doing it, and others seem less than enthusiastic too.  And it's because they clearly have absolutely zero interest in a fight.  It's almost worse when there is a "good" shardfall sometimes, because yeah, it can be a "valid tactic" to have someone go harvest shards while teams fight, but what actually happens is that AM and demonic square off while one or two magickers clear the shards.  And there are enough shards that in a sense that's not even a problem - except it tends to end the fun all too soon, because those girls are nothing if not -efficient- >.>.  And while in theory people -could- stay and keep playing after the shards are gone, in practice, it is extremely rare that that happens.

EDIT:  in a sense, I almost wish we could put them in a room of endless shards and let them harvest to 1 million shards or whatever the "final" shard achievement is.  I also think that most of them would be -ecstatic- if that were an actual possibility.

Ailish

You're not posting in bad Russian.  I speak fluent Russian, and I have no idea what's going on above.

If Curran wants to go to every shardfall and just harvest, what do you care?  Kill her, yeah, it's not very exciting, but it's not very time consuming either.

If AM and Demonic are fighting and magick clear out all the shards (btw, that's a total misconception about Magick, a BUNCH of magick people will actively fight back), again, so what?  If AM and Demonic are having a good fight, you're allowed to continue fighting after the shards are gone.  The beauty of consensual PvP.

Shardfalls are a WONDERFUL idea for all the reasons that @caelya explained and their biggest tragedy is 1. They don't happen often enough, and 2. Not enough people are incentivized to attend.  Any reason that helps #2 is welcome.  We should give experience from harvesting shards, AND have a team goal tied to it AND shower all the participants with lollipops and rainbows.  Whatever it takes to get people out there.

Ailish

Shardfall incentive idea - after each shardfall tally up how many shards each circle collected.  The winner gets circle wide %20 experience boost and %20 gold drop boost until the next shardfall.  Both boosts stack with everything.

Jules

Basically, I end up feeling like a huge jerk, and yet, resentful too. I guess no one else sees it that way.

Anette

Jules seems to resent the fact that some people do things for reasons other than PVP, to read her posts.  "Acheivements" is some sort of anathemea reason to motivate people to participate in an open PVP system.  You know what?  They can "dislike" the conflict in shardfalls all they like (I have never seen this happen myself, but I've only participated in a handful), if some cheevo hunter is participating in an open PVP event and doesn't want to fight then you know what they are to me?  An easy target.

Personally, like @Caelya, they're my bridge to PVP.  I come to this game both from places that were RP heavy and to RP (and bash), but the shardfall to me is an opportunity to group up with some allies from my circle towards a shared goal, which helps both IC in the sense of helping people get shards for their various skills and uses, and OOC in the sense of being a context for PVP that isn't just griefy.  You don't even have to be a PVPer to participate in a meaningful fashion, you can just be a tanky mofo like Anette and sit there and harvest, while others defend you, and I appreciate that.

But let's be honest about one thing: if you do have a fair few shards already, there is no reason beyond it being open PVP to participate at present.  Quest XP would be a decent one, I think - speaking as an aspect I'm still far behind on that particular branch and short of the ever-full generator there isn't really a decent way I know of to fix that, since more of the actual quests give piddling amounts of experience and even if I got it to level 100 I could just use it for perks or drops.  I don't think it would be in some way disruptive, and it would give something of a more appreciable reward.

[Edit:] @Ailish 's idea also would be neat, IMO.

Ohm

I still don't understand what @Jules actual objection is

Anette

I think she resents that she feels like a bad guy harassing achievement hunters?  But you know, you don't have to participate in the shardfall events to get the shard achievements, they're just the most expedient way to get them.  Hell, I found an entire shardfall's worth just laying around in the Heartlands early yesterday AM.  While it's certainly slower to get those achievements as a sort of ragpicker, you can still do it.

I think it's fundamentally wrong to change an open PVP event to coddle non-PVPers, and I say that as a non-PVPer.

Mercer

Yes, hello I'm one of those "achievement hunters" regarding shards, I don't visit shardfalls because whatever, I can pick up singles during down time or when I feel like it.

I'm sure like 80-90% of my overall collected shards are from single hunting.

Shou

I stand by the idea I had since shards were introduced: Let cities/councils build a shard portal that will link with the mysterious volcano producing these shards. Have it be some large amount so you can't do it whenever. You go inside and are met with shard golems protecting massive hoards of shards that you must kill before being able to mine the plethora of shards, all while lava starts to slowly fill up this chamber you're in. Make this portal only be able to be built in a public area so enemies can try to steal your shards.

There you go. An all-inclusive, player-started, timed activity.

Lartus

I collect shards so I can moradeim bypass into @Arakis space and vivisect him.

Gurn

Shou said:

I stand by the idea I had since shards were introduced: Let cities/councils build a shard portal that will link with the mysterious volcano producing these shards. Have it be some large amount so you can't do it whenever. You go inside and are met with shard golems protecting massive hoards of shards that you must kill before being able to mine the plethora of shards, all while lava starts to slowly fill up this chamber you're in. Make this portal only be able to be built in a public area so enemies can try to steal your shards.

There you go. An all-inclusive, player-started, timed activity.

Soooo... 5AM shard party anyone? I know a fine place to get some blue crystal, if y'all know what I'm sayin'.

Eoghan

Angry red text time.

Quick reminder to discuss ideas, not posters. It's fine to discount an idea (preferably with argumentation backing up your opinion) but you shouldn't attack individual posters. Things are fine so far (but teetering on the edge). Don't make me come back and close this later.

Jules

Right, exactly, Mercer.  And realistically, there are plenty of unattended shard falls too... whether you just actually need shards, or are an achievement junkie. 

See, on a surface level, I can tell myself "rawr, if they're here, we're going to go after them".  And it's mostly what I actually do... or ask other people to do if I really don't feel like it, or... better yet, someone just does it!  But I feel like it's still kind of an "ugh" situation for all parties.  

I mean, it is one thing to draw in people who, for whatever reason, are more hesitant to PK, and then they find out it can be fun sometimes.  I mean, -I- was one of those people.  I would not be PK-ing (or playing at all) if we had XP loss.  Some people would (and do) call -that- coddling.  But with some of these guys, they are motivated pretty much -exclusively- by the achievement, and shardfall after shardfall, the combat aspect is nothing but a huge annoyance to them.  So we have no common ground other than we are both kind of annoying to each other. 

If there is a box to be ticked, I think there are people who feel they -must- tick it off.  I am just saying, if the box didn't exist in this case, everyone's lives would be easier.  Quest XP... it really might be fine, and if it isn't quite "fine", I don't think a bit of quest XP is as big of a deal to people as "I MUST GET THE ACHIEVEMENT" seems to be (something I never would have guessed until I saw that people really do feel that way about achievements), which is why I worded my initial response the way I did.  But yeah, I do feel leery of things that might make people feel like they NEED to go "participate" in something that they pretty much hate in all actuality, for all of the reasons I have tried (and failed) to express.  

Anette

So what would you suggest?  Remove the achievements?  What purpose would that serve exactly?

Mercer

I think you're confused Jules, I get shards for the achievements, nothing more nothing less, the fact I can use them for stuff is an afterthought.

Jules

At this point, it would be crappy to remove them for people who have already started on them, and the people I am talking about would probably be more furious than anyone if they were.  So, they definitely should not be removed for say, Curran (at least, not the 10K one, which she is close to getting).  But yeah, I kind of wish the 10K and 100K blueshard (and the 1K and 10K red ones) just didn't exist for anyone who isn't working in that bracket already.  And if they don't exist, people don't feel compelled to get them.    

EDIT:  Mercer, YES.  That is -exactly- my point.  

EDIT2:  Shou's idea, whether tongue in cheek or not, is amazing.  

Anette

For what reason?  What does removing those accomplishments serve?

Jules

I think those people wouldn't bother going to shardfalls as much as they do.  Which would be a good thing, because as I have tried to convey, they don't seem to actually -like- shardfalls.  They are enduring shardfalls because they feel they need to get the achievement.  

Anette

... I fail to see why removing something from an activity that increases participation in it would be in any way a good thing.

"Yeah, you know that reason why people take part in shardfalls?  Lets remove that."

Which assuming that is why most people participate in shardfalls, which at least in the case of anyone I've ever done them with, is pretty much not the case.  They do it because they're starved for something to do to bring them into open conflict with the other organizations in the world.

Ailish

my god.  like, why do you even care why they're at shardfalls.  Kill them.  Or don't, if you feel bad about it.

I don't (feel bad about it), and I'd like to keep my supply of easy kills going.

This discussion of morality of killing peaceful shard collectors is TOTALLY derailing this thread, whose purpose is to come up with ideas to make shardfalls more awesome. 

Anette

Ailish said:

my god.  like, why do you even care why they're at shardfalls.  Kill them.  Or don't, if you feel bad about it.

I don't, and I'd like to keep my supply of easy kills going.

This discussion of morality of killing peaceful shard collectors is TOTALLY derailing this thread, whose purpose is to come up with ideas to make shardfalls more awesome. 

Moreover, modifying an open PVP event to make it more palataple to non-PVPers seems fundamentally flawed.  Shardfalls, by design, are meant to be a locus for conflict.   De-escalating the amount of conflict in them is contrary to their point.  In the same way I do not expect people to change arena fights so that I can get those 100 manhunt cheevos and the like, nor do I think it is wise to modify the shardfall event so it is easier for me to get the achievement for that, either.

[edit]: Just speaking personally - go look at my KILLS.  I have not yet killed a single person in this game.  I am by definition a "peaceful shard collecter" - and when I do get involved in shardfalls, I do so knowing that I am participating in an open PVP event.  This is not unreasonable, and as @Mercer said, it's not all that bad at all to just pick the leftovers afterwards, if you don't want to take part.

Jules

The scenario I care about most is where say, AM and demonic are squaring off and one or two people are clearing the shards while they fight.  Realistically, we're not going to call temporary truce and go kill them either... although it would be great if we did.  And then everyone goes home far too soon  I'd like less of that.  It usually is the hard core collectors, too.  

Ailish

I literally give up.  

Shame.  I had a lot of hopes for this thread.

Anette

Jules said:

The scenario I care about most is where say, AM an demonic are squaring off and one or two people are clearing the shards while they fight.  Realistically, we're not going to call temporary truce and go kill them either... although it would be great if we did.  And then everyone goes home far too soon  I'd like less of that.  It usually is the hard core collectors, too.  

If people are fighting to the detriment of completing their objective, I would say that is not a problem with the design of the event, but rather, with the short-sightedness of the combatants involved.