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AFK Automation: Harmful to Imperian?

OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
edited April 2016 in General Discussion
So I've been gone for a while, but I heard recently about an instance of automation ending in another shrub, and it got me thinking hard about the issue. Why does our Administration care about automation? To the point that they will cull what are by definition our more plugged-in of our already low playerbase. Let's talk about it.

1. Unfair Advantage
 I see plainly this being the major concern, but in practice, why? 'Unfair' requires there to be a limited number of resources, and that is not the case here. The same tools of automation (coding knowledge and mud programs) are available to everybody, and just as importantly the people who have this skill and knowledge are not stingy about sharing it - see Theo's autofisher for details. Bashing areas are plentiful, and boosts to bashing are in such high numbers its almost ridiculous. Harvesting is individually counted. Fishing might actually happen if it could be automated. The playerbase is far too small to generate a physical need the game cannot already compensate for. It is also peppered with far too many artifacts, and even more utility items (warhorn, bug coin, atlas pages/shrines), that already craft an 'unfair advantage' in the same areas of the game. The major difference I see is that coding automation can theoretically be learned by everyone, whereas artifacts and utility items can only be compensated for with equal or greater investment in artifacts and utility items (...or coding, look at that).

 In the event of a game or Great Hunt, I understand very much that 100% automation is unfair against those who do not take that method, however, the way the Turkey Hunt was conducted proved very much that 1) it is possible to monitor who is AFK during a short and crucial period of time and 2) that automation is accepted as a function of our game and the issue lies with being AFK and not with the coding itself existing. 

 A quick and lazy mention that 100% intelligent automation is not possible or feasible. The disadvantages to being AFK and trying to accomplish something are pretty self-evident.

2. 'Play the Game'/AFKers:

 One word: Ironbeard. 

 More words: I'm serious. Even though 85% of everybody who was online at 4:30 am on a Tuesday the last week of December was AFK, seeing that many people online made the game seem big and lively. While AFK used to be a punishable offense by shrubbing, the game has changed so much that the basis of a Holiday Promotion is to just be AFK, and I don't see why taking it one step further to be bashing or fishing -- generating activity for the game, creating a stronger character (which creates competition), encouraging 'always online' which is at least a better direction than the alternative -- is to be demonized. This isn't exactly bug-abuse, generating limitless goods by manipulating a system -- these are systems in place that have been determined as 'fair' and have been moderated to a level of 'fairness' that is acceptable to the Administration. As stated above, it has been accepted that these systems can and will be used optimally through coding and that their ability to determine how close to the computer a person is is not only imperfect, but is also largely irrelevant. If I can be playing a two-handed FPS or my guitar or be on Skype, for HOURS, while I'm bashing, who is to know or care if I was avidlt watching Imperian the whole time, or if I looked over every time I got a tell, or every 5, 10, 30 minutes, an hour? Etc, or if I risked dying and sitting AFK at Dis because I went pee? Or to a movie? Or fell asleep at my keyboard? These are all wildly different circumstances that play out the same game-side, but player-side result in very different levels of rulebreaking that cannot be quantified or proved, but can be and have been punished. For the record, I've never intentionally AFKbashed, though I've fallen asleep at my keyboard more than once. 

3. Love your Playerbase
 AFK Checks made me crazy when they were being perfected two summers ago. I understand that at the time Admin were trying to figure out how to do them for Great Hunts to be visible without being easily manipulated or automated. That's certainly their role as administration, however the feeling by those autobotters being tested on (on like, a normal Wednesday) that they were being tested and constantly monitored. Mens Rea aside, there *isnt* a rule about having an autobasher or using it, only about using it when I cannot actively steer. The concern, at least for me, was that I'd be looking away one of the two-times-daily I was tested, be deemed AFK and punished accordingly despite only being in tetris one inch to the left or something. It was one of many frustrations, but I found it easier to not bother bashing at all, or even being online, than it was to watch the game as actively as I felt the Administration were expecting.
 The AFK rule itself is loose enough to allow for some less-than-full attention to be paid just for the sake of having players doing things and being online. I believe that anything that discourages people from the game should be identified and at least acknowledged, and this is something that has cost us at least one long-time player recently to shrubbing, anecdotal extended-period qqers in response to afk checks (myself among this pile)  - and for what? 
 This game genre is rolling over and this game itself is already - or should already - be extending itself to gain and retain players, to encourage more consistent playing, and to bolster interest in game mechanics.

 I dunno, I'm too busy to play lately, I just heard somebody got shrubbed and I thought it was pretty stupid that anyone is being shrubbed for something as benign as automation when we are still struggling to have 3 daily players in every guild. And I cared enough to write about it apparently. 
 You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."

AFK Automation: Harmful to Imperian? 26 votes

Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
61%
Jeremy SaundersMercerIcariusOhmSkyeSeptusWysriasLartusMereisJebadiahEtienneCardiAnetteSenaliDimitriZerin 16 votes
No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.
38%
KhizanKrysalissDiceneArakisLinsletOystirTheophilusKristosAilishCyr 10 votes
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Comments

  • TheophilusTheophilus Member Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.
    I autofish while I play PS4 or write papers. I'm not AFK, and I check my Imperian screen every 5 minutes or so, or if I get a tell.

    I'm still paranoid in those 5 minutes, or during the time it took to read this forum post, that I might get an AFK check. (I've never gotten one, by the way).

    Let's be real--after playing this game 5+ years, staring at "You attack x" over and over gets tiresome, especially when there's an achievement to kill 1,000,000 mobs. I don't think people should be able to autobash for 12 hours without ever looking at Imperian, but there's a nice balance to strike.

    Also, how'd you know about my autofisher 0.o. It's available, by the way, if anybody wants it. Just hmu IG.
    (Ring): Lartus says, "I heard Theophilus once threw a grenade and killed ten people."
    (Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."

    (Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    I am not sure who you heard about being shrubbed for it. I have not had to shrub anyone for it in a while. Although we have had some reports, so we are watching for people.

    You make some interesting points about automation. 

    I find that most people are very put out when an automated character is bashing out an area, kill stealing because they are not looking for players in the room, and they are not responding to tells. We do not really allow for PK on an autobasher as we want people to report it, which can make it a little more frustrating.

    If we did allow PK on an autobashers, then that character will see who killed them and will have the 'right' to go get revenge. A lot of bashers are not really PK people, so that is problematic as well. Of course, they could get someone else to do it for them.

    We could just let people kill autobashers (or get someone to do it for them), but what if that person is not AFK, and just does not care to talk to the character that thinks they are autobashing?

    Anyways, this is something I have spent time thinking about.
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,251 admin
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    On a side note, we could probably come up with a way to deal with the Ironbeard thing. I will keep that in mind for next year.
  • OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.
    It was this year, but it wasn't exactly recent. They weren't a 'daily' player by any means, but we had a standing weekly time to intersect, and this ruling came when they were already putting in the real struggle of coming online & being invested. More importantly, as Theo and I both stated, the existence of the likelihood of this penalty has been nervewracking and discouraging even for those of us who have not broken this rule and do not intend to.

    There are indeed problems with possibly opening up the opportunities of automation, such as things like in-room attacking - I didn't think about that, but that also seems really immaterial to me. If somebody looks like they're AFKbashing, put up an icewall, or flood, or fear, or mind-wrench -- it doesn't take a full-on murder to throw off a robot, would generate a few PK excuses in bashing areas that are already in a state of being 'claimed' and 'dominated' by certain sects. Make a ritual to throw one person out of an area for 30 seconds. Broaden PK rules to disallow retaliation for when YOU kill somebody else's mob. We all know it'd be the same 2-3 people who would break these rules who are already pushing the envelope to the rules that currently exist. In general I feel like we would be able to police ourselves well once we had some frame for what our concerns would be. 
     You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
  • TheophilusTheophilus Member Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.
    If someone kills my mob, it's okay. If they do it twice within five minutes, I feel like that's reasonable cause to kill them.
    (Ring): Lartus says, "I heard Theophilus once threw a grenade and killed ten people."
    (Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."

    (Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
  • OhmOhm Member Posts: 333 ✭✭✭
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    Honestly, automation causes so much gold generation that credit prices for the general population skyrockets. 

    Further, people who can code auto-bashers can easily code twist rings or escape on attack while they are auto-bashing. 

    So while I don't see any problem with the activity itself, the consequence it has for the entire community is pretty bad.



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  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    Auto-bashing is symptomatic.  It' isn't the cause.  But the implication of the word 'symptom' here is that there is an underlying disease or problem.  And there kind of is.

    Bashing is boring as hell to most people.

    Right, there, I said it.  Even as someone who herself actually enjoys it because presumably I'm some sort of mad person and I find something kind of "zen" to it, autobashing is people essentially designing a system to do a repetitive task for them because they find it boring.  The same is likely true of @Theophilus and fishing I wager, from his previous comment, I doubt you'd find him saying he finds it super-exciting.

    There really isn't an easy answer to that, because however you attempt to solve it.  It's going to involve work.

    You can fix it by keeping a churn of new an interesting areas for people to bash in and figure out, which is generally the more effective approach for MMOs and the like, but that requires a lot of building and thus a constant development work, and that's probably not quite in the cards since the current team Imperian has is already kind of stretched thin.

    You can try to make existing bashing more interesting mechanically and that will certainly solve it for some people, but not everyone.  I sure would go for a system whereby you would have an actual FIGHT with the mobiles but that would be pretty disruptive to the status quo at this point and also require a lot of work (though a one-time investment with occasional tweaks rather than constant development at least).

    I will say one thing though: there is always going to be one segment that just won't like certain parts of the game no matter how you change them, so I wouldn't consider it all that wise to try to bend to accomodate them.

    With regards to automation like that specifically, I have to wonder: just how hard is it to watch your autobasher as it's going?  Let's drop the pretenses here: most people are using them, I'm probably the one person I know who automates bashing to a very minimal degree relatively speaking.  It just doesn't become a problem, usually, because people keep an eye on them.  @Juran for instance has been fine with moving off the like two times I've poked him for bashing my stuff (and I think he's coded his system in such a way as to try to not bash over people).  It's not hard.

    So, I guess my opinion comes off slightly nuanced in that regard.  I have no problem with automation.  I do have a problem with it being unsupervised.

    Along with the reasons @Ohm mentioned, the big one is what @Jeremy did: I can't really have reprisals against someone autobashing since they want us to report them if they're unresponsive, so it becomes a problem that way.  Yeah, I know, sayeth Anette, PK Queen of the world (not) but if there's IG recourse for someone that bashes over me I daresay its a problem that'd fix itself.
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  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    I hate bashing, but I would never use an autobasher. It is probably why I am still low level. 
  • OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.
    @Ohm - I would agree with your concerns except for the fact of the artifact auction. I saw credit prices drop dramatically for several weeks in response to one promotion creating a demand for gold that was just as, if not larger, than the demand for credits. Credit prices have stayed somewhere near the same range, with maybe a 5k difference in price, since they were when I started playing 2 years ago. This is in response to fortune favor, and then reduced gold drops, and despite there being no control over the generation of credits, etc, I've never seen the credit market fluxuate too wildly, and never, never on the side of 'more expensive'. 

    @Anette - I disagree that bashing being boring is the root of the problem, because if we are identifying issues, it's that 'MUDs are not always engaging' and there is no amount of coding that can be done to fix that eventuality. When we identify that as the core issue, I think it becomes pretty clear that the solution is to both try to find ways to make the MUD more engaging, and to limit and monitor penalties for players who react to this truth. That's why, I feel, there is a lot of wiggle-room given for those who push PK rules, and the allowances already given about general afk and automation in general. That our primary mechanic for experience gain is so reviled is an issue, but I'm generally against any primary solution being one that requires a mechanical 'overhaul', especially when the administration are focusing their efforts elsewhere and especially especially when the administration have bent over backwards to make it as easy and pain-free as possible, down to literally coding target/attack in a macro in a client they made for you while the autohealer they made for you fires freely alongside it.

    I'm advocating for autofishing just as hard, as it's a fun mechanic with literally NO incentive to it, other than jumping through achievement hoops and getting another line in your honors if thats what you're about. I think it'd be relatively easy to find a solution to AFK Autobashers, and I genuinely think if that is our largest concern about allowing, or at least about loosening the restrictions on, complete automation, that it'd be worth seriously considering.

     The result of this change would be much, much smaller than the other game-side automations -- the pathfinder, targetter, healer, etc -- and the game recovered from the initial backlash and benefited from the ease of play that it allowed. Our credit market isn't going to change from this any more dramatically than fortune favour. 

    AFK Checks was one of the last straws for me back when I was struggling to be engaged by this game and resulted in me leaving for several months, and we've lost a years-seasoned player to it this year, with others 'being watched', and anecdotal evidence proves a handful of folks at least have been negatively impacted by these rules - because they want to obey them - because of their very existence. I've always been pretty vocal that retaining our players should be the game's collective priority, and this evidence suggests a problem to me that at least deserves serious consideration. It has always been the status quo, but I believe facing the reality that our MUD will probably never repopulate or grow noticably again, and that many of the things that used to work no longer do (Gods, Third Faction, etc) should have us all looking more critically at the game and the various pieces of it that need work. This was the basis of how I addressed my guild, by changing my ideas about what a guild used to be (main rp org where you get your profession) to what it is (optional rank system with credits) and altering how the organization presented itself accordingly. I think a lot of aspects in the game should be seriously looked over in the same way, by players and administration both.
     You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    Oystir said:

    @Anette - I disagree that bashing being boring is the root of the problem, because if we are identifying issues, it's that 'MUDs are not always engaging' and there is no amount of coding that can be done to fix that eventuality.
    Trying to make MUDs more fun for people who don't enjoy MUDs seems to be a losing gambit, so I doubt that's a helpful suggestion to be honest. I see games fall into this trap all the time: all you do by trying to make yourself more palatible to people who don't enjoy the type or genre of game in question is you alienate the people whom do.
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  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    This has less to do with being AFK than about automation but I tried leading a hunting group recently but since everyone was basically one-shotting everything from Demon's Pass to Underworld (and the annoying aspect that Underworld mobs throw players from the room) it's less rewarding and more frustrating to bash in a group than solo.
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    Iluv said:
    This has less to do with being AFK than about automation but I tried leading a hunting group recently but since everyone was basically one-shotting everything from Demon's Pass to Underworld (and the annoying aspect that Underworld mobs throw players from the room) it's less rewarding and more frustrating to bash in a group than solo.
    I agree, and this is why you usually see Anette hunt alone.  I'd like to see something to fix this but I'm not sure what form it would take.  I enjoy stuff like the wraith lords and whatnot once you get to grips with the mechanics they use, so perhaps some more things like that.
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  • DimitriDimitri Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    I don't see the sense in autobashing, if things have gotten that dull then quit. Go for a walk, paint a tree, pet the cats, write a really long letter to @Jeremy via snail mail. Autobashing to me is the result of someone taking a game far too seriously, or rather their enjoyment of said game far too seriously. When you start automating a game to play while you're not around, are you actually playing something??
    And before the obligatory: i need to stay online in case X thing happens, or my org gets attacked or such and such player shows up and i wanna put my foot in their butt cause reasons.
    It's a game, you're going to miss things, it sucks but it shouldn't necessitate you botting around an area killing (hah) time until something more interesting happens.

    There's also a new player (or in my case constantly returning new player) aspect to it, sure everyone's pretty free with the code for autobashing if you got the client for it, but then for those that don't have it and don't want it, they're stuck playing in a world with smart 'npcs' killing things faster than they can.

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.

    I vote for "No", but my real vote is for a third option called "It may or may not be harmful, but the whole question is strictly academic because there's nothing you can do to prevent it."

    The real problem is that the PvE content is an exercise in soul-killing monotony and almost every system requires excessive amounts of it to work so that it cannot be avoided. You can never stop me from automating, so the best way to keep me from doing it is to make fun systems so that I don't want to automate it. You don't do that and so everybody automates it,

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    I remember back in the day killing a mob someone was attacking accidentally, apologized, and was killed for it. Of course, I issued like a mad kid, and was told it was a completely legit reason for someone to kill you.

    Time's have changed and I'm assuming that's no longer the straight black and white case anymore.
    image
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
     Back in my day we used to board their ship uninvited. Now we have to warn them beforehand.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.

    The way I understand it is that if their autobasher bashes over top of you, you can kill them for bashing over top of you. You just can't kill them for straight up autobashing.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Jeremy said: and just does not care to talk to the character that thinks they are autobashingafking?

    Man I do this all the time. :D People think I'm AFK, I'm just like '
    just home from work, too lazy to answer you, sorry bro.'

    To the topic;

    ... there's no way you can prevent it. You can police it but that's labour intensive. If major MMO games struggle to fight against automation, what more with Imperian's staff?

    More importantly,

    What is the value of autobashing? The persons who autobash to get their toon to level 100, to level up their sect ritual points, to bash up faith for a shrine war or shrine expansion phase - none of these I feel are really problematic. These are mechanical numerical objectives to gain things which further character development or aid conflict. These are good things.

    In my eyes, the problems with autobashing are those people who autobash primarily to generate gold, primarily to buy credits, primarily to acquire things that have an arbitrary dollar equivalent or exchange rate. Yes, Imperian is free-to-play, but it also is a business. These category of autobashers deflate the value of Imperian gold by generating a ####load of it. The real exchange rate of Imperian credits is a credit-per-time, which administration can always control - and these will always fluctuate in favour of those who can and will automate because automation infinitesimally reduces the time-cost for the autobasher.

    Importantly, autobashers can bash at a maximal rate and thereby excluding access to this gold generation for other players.

    So the heart of the problem is: 

    people who can automate the generation of gold/whatever exchange commodity to avoid paying IRE money, do this to the detriment of the rest of the game.

    There are no good solutions because gold is generated by time spent, and autobashers have theoretically an infinite bank of time. Removing gold generation from the system completely or removing the gold-credit link completely is one of the feasible ways to reduce this time dependence, but there is no way IRE can do it without harming their philosophy as a free-to-play game.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AilishAilish Member Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.
    @Iniar, this would be a valid point if the point in discussion was removing automation altogether. It is not. Rather the point being discussed us whether I need to stare at the Imperian window while my autobasher does its thing or whether I can alt tab into my browser and finally finish watching The Man In The High Castle on Netflix. Actually, that's not even the point, the point is whether I'm watching Netflix in split screen with my client or in full screen. Neither of these options have any effect on my gold generation rate (and my autobasher is smart enough to not bash over someone now)
  • MercerMercer Member Posts: 220 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    Along with gold production, there's now spirit and virtue drops that can be acquired and relics(especially down in the Underworld) that can be useful ones or ones that can be fed to an altar to get the ones you want.

    So its not just gold.
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.

    I can't stand bashing.

    But my computer never shuts down. I am sure I am not alone in saying I would run an autobasher 24/7 if this was a thing, at least until gold became such a worthless commodity that it wasn't worth it anymore and farming bitcoins would be a better use of processing power.

    Bashing is incredibly dull, though.

  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.
    There really needs to be a third option, because I'm in the middle. 

    Bashing is dull and tedious. It took me over 7 years to have my first aspect character because of this. My recent character attained aspect rapidly ONLY because I use an automated basher, which is something I have been incredibly opposed to most of my time playing here. 

    I think the part that bothers me is 'afk'. Nobody should be 'playing' imperian and not at least somewhat attentive to the game. That doesn't mean we need to be watching the tedium scroll by like a hawk, but we should be mindful of it. I used to have an automated script to fish. While fishing, I did most of my administrative/creative work for the game. All my org-related writing, all my crafting stuff tended to happen while my fish script was running. So I'd be in another program writing, and checking back in every few minutes on my fishing Krysaliss.

    For those of us who are not coding pros or simply don't ENJOY coding and don't leech off of other people's skills, a rudimentary bashing script may not have a built in chat cap. It can be a real challenge to SEE if someone is talking to you. So the checks can be easily missed by those who are not adept coders. I don't really think there's a good, solid way to catch AFK autobashers. I don't think there's enough harm caused by AFK autobashers to justify harassing people who are using automated scripts to get through an incredibly tedious but increasingly necessary aspect of the game.

    That said - I don't think bashing needs to be as dull as it is. I think we CAN take a page from MMOs in how they develop progression flow and guide players from one area/quest/bashing set up to another. We've started to do so for newbies but it drops off after strikingly. Once folks hit end game, the problem gets a little dicier, but it's not impossible to find ways to make resource (gold, virtue drops, relic drops, aspect perk generation) more engaging than endless circles in the Underworld.

    I also think this is symptomatic of a much bigger problem Imperian is facing. The game is dull. People are bashing because there isn't a whole lot else to do. Groupsmash pk, autobash when there's no combat action happening, rinse, repeat. Some of us are RPing in tiny pockets, but eh. Orgs are basically dead in the water. Newbie retention is terribad. Player engagement is terribad. Fixing AFK autobashing should be somewhere near the bottom of a very long list of issues that need serious attention.  
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    I wonder if we can make bashing fun enough that you are encouraged to focus on it.
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What I'm saying is that afk bashing with zero attention is ok for objectives witt solid end points: faith to build a shrine, ritual points to collect. What you dont want is automated zero-attention bashing simply to avoid paying IRE money.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Yes. AFK players are inherently harmful, especially if allowed to compete for resources without active play.
    Krysaliss said:
    I also think this is symptomatic of a much bigger problem Imperian is facing. The game is dull. People are bashing because there isn't a whole lot else to do. Groupsmash pk, autobash when there's no combat action happening, rinse, repeat. Some of us are RPing in tiny pockets, but eh. Orgs are basically dead in the water. Newbie retention is terribad. Player engagement is terribad. Fixing AFK autobashing should be somewhere near the bottom of a very long list of issues that need serious attention.  
    I agree and disagree.  There's a lot Imperian could stand to improve.  I think by doing so, they will fix this problem as part of natural course of doing so, really. If you make the game engaging to people (particularly in the end-game), then you're not going to have people that are automating because they're bored.

    Of course, there'll always be those looking to get ahead by doing so anyways, but at that point, those are the ones probably being damaging to the game to begin with.  There's definitely more than one "type" of person autobashing.
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  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anette said:
    With regards to automation like that specifically, I have to wonder: just how hard is it to watch your autobasher as it's going?  Let's drop the pretenses here: most people are using them, I'm probably the one person I know who automates bashing to a very minimal degree relatively speaking.  It just doesn't become a problem, usually, because people keep an eye on them.  @Juran for instance has been fine with moving off the like two times I've poked him for bashing my stuff (and I think he's coded his system in such a way as to try to not bash over people).  It's not hard.
    The only thing I use any sort of 'autobasher' for is to avoid the repetitive motion injuries that run in my family, and if I could not use one I simply could not bash. I interact with the client exactly the same as I would if I were bashing manually, I just don't press F1 every time I attack.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm going to go out and say that I have coded myself an autobasher, and when I'm bashing, I'm using it. It went from "oh my god I need to generate HOW much belief for my sect" and having a simple "when recover balance, hit demon" into that with a health watcher and shielder and then so on and so forth until I just ended up creating a bunch for a couple of areas.

    It's tedious making an autobasher. Parsing all that information takes hours, and testing it takes hours. I'd say each area I make takes me probably the better part of a week because it's so boring.

    But it's still better than actually bashing. I have a dual monitor setup, and I can easily run my autobasher while I'm playing Halo or CS or something, and keep a watch to pass any checks. Here's the thing, though, and something that no one really wants to admit--

    You can try all you want to stop me from autobashing, but I can implement so many checks and alarms and "I'm really here seriously guys" things that you will never, ever be able to stop me from autobashing. Of course, true AFK autobashing with the AFK checks make it difficult, but if I'm here at my computer, there is no way that an admin can distinguish between my randomized delays and other set functions that simulate me personally typing in all of it and real autobashing. I'd like to point out that, even if I am regularly bashing spamming my F1 key, it actually ends up looking more like autobashing than my autobasher script, just because all of us 5 year+ veterans know balance timings like no other and have muscle memory reflexes that work just like triggers.

    And as mentioned above, many of us are close to, or have already developed carpal tunnel or ulnar tunnel from Imperian bashing. 


    Honestly? I think a sweeping game design change is the only thing that can solve this. Hunting ONLY for levels, and does NOT generate gold. Gold generation, IMO, should be done by some kind of other active means. That would SIGNIFICANTLY help most of the problems that's going on. The biggest problem with hunting is not that it's boring or this or that, but it's our primary method of resource generation for almost EVERYTHING, besides shards(which are also inflated from what I hear, but that's probably a separate issue).

    If primary gold generation were moved to another source, incentive to hunt and autobash would go waaaay down, and no one would really have a problem with it anymore.


    tl;dr Autobashing is a symptom of almost all resource generation coming from a single source. Create or shift resource generation to other activities and autobashing will go away by itself.
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.
    @Anette - I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be addressed, just that there's other bigger fish to fry in the immediate. I think some of the player retention/engagement work that needs to be done would probably involve them addressing some of the advancement issues in the game currently and those certainly touch on bashing being dull.. It's easy peasy for an old hand to bounce up to Aspect, but a true newb is going to hit 20 and be bewildered when the game stops providing useful information and there's no current support structure in place, for example. 
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No. Automation is accepted as Imperian culture, and our limitations in monitoring it can damage our already small playerbase.

    As far as PvE goes, I like bosses the best, by an awful lot. I'd much rather have an area of boss mobs than an area with 5000 undead I have to punch out individually. There's a lot of reasons for this.

    I like that they're stationary. This means that I can take a group to kill bosses without constantly having to wait for everybody to regain balance, even that string Knight with a heavy broadsword who has a 4 second bashing attack. Waiting for everybody to get balance back before moving is irritating and clunky and I hate it so much that I refuse to bash with people who attack mobs. 

    I like that they're more involved than just trivial "attack undead" 500 times. Explaining boss mobs to groups isn't that bad and it is far more engaging bashing normal mobs. It's especially good because it's an area that really rewards the interaction of veteran players with new ones, because boss kills are super good for new players. If your group knows their stuff you can pretty easily get your new player 6 tokens and 60+ credits via bosskills. 

    They're also much more rewarding than regular bashing from a powerplayer standpoint. Each bosskill gets somebody a 1 credit giftbag stone and some form of temporary artifact, which can go a long ways towards reducing the artifact buyin, as well as reasonably good gold from the boss-turnins.

    I mean, I took some citizens on a two hour bosskilling night and it was rewarding enough that nobody's time was wasted. If I had to take people on a regular bashing trip for 2 hours, I'd fake an internet crash and go do something more fun, like mopping the kitchen or folding laundry.

    IMO, the best plan is to make bosses more common and more rewarding to put more of the high-level PvE emphasis there, as opposed to running my basher around Demon's Pass 500 times. DP/Necro are a good start, but there's too much of the stupid boring bashing required to spawn the bosses. 


    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • JuranJuran Member Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gurn said:
    It's tedious making an autobasher. Parsing all that information takes hours, and testing it takes hours. I'd say each area I make takes me probably the better part of a week because it's so boring.
    I created my entire autobasher from scratch in 25 minutes.
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