Group fighting

Tyden

As I dive more and more into Imperian and it's combat, I have one issue that I keep seeing.

Fights quickly go from "even" to whoever can call in the most troops. Which is fine, I suppose...in larger groups 6v4...etc. The issue is more relevant to the 4v1's happening out there.

This is my experience within Midkemiaonline, and that game was far from perfect(obviously giving it's closing), but one thing it did do right was have a somewhat accuracy malus that really deterred these "group gankings". It didn't mean that the 1 vs 4 had a advantage(they usually ended up dying), but it did at least give them a fighters chance in some situations.
Edit:

Guess I didn't explain accuracy malus: Basically it is the more people actively attacking a person, the more chance the attacks will miss

So I guess the reason for this topic is, has accuracy malus for group combat ever been discussed? Should it be?

Tyden

I guess another thing to say is.....it's very odd for me to "zerg" or encourage to "zerg" one single target in group fights. Everyone on this person! Instead of having tactics of disabling others, because the system promotes well...ganging up on one player.


Edit:

I also want to not take away from the group fighting mechanic or the ability to flip away and regroup. It still doesn't really address the issue at hand in some aspects.

Juran

Tyden said:

I guess another thing to say is.....it's very odd for me to "zerg" or encourage to "zerg" one single target in group fights. Everyone on this person! Instead of having tactics of disabling others, because the system promotes well...ganging up on one player.

Most standard disables are inefficient and/or useless these days, and dead people do no damage at all (which is the best disable possible).

Khizan

Imperian works a bit different in some cases.

Let's take somebody like Iluv or Septus. They're both pretty great at 1v1 and most people in this game are not going to beat them. One of them starts, I dunno. Picking a fight outside of your city. You can't beat them. So you grab somebody to help. Problem is, the new recruit is not that good and now your offense is even worse. So you grab somebody else. And now you miss even more, and due to the way afflictions work your more skillful kills are sort of off the table because you can't reliably stack your afflictions now so you're stuck spamming brute force kill routines. And their offense is unhindered and they're ripping you apart.

Ozreas

The metagame and atmosphere of Imperian have already progressed far past the point where it would be reasonable to expect individuals to succeed on their own merits.

Ayden

Not sure if Midkemia was the first to implement that or Lithmeria, but I personally think accuracy malus(Positioning in Lithmeria) is a good thing in PvP group fights. Some of my most favorite PvP fights of all games, graphical or text, have been in Lithmeria(I obviously have not gotten into Imperian's PvP yet). Instead of missing completely, I feel like the way Lithmeria implemented it was a bit better, the more people past 2 attackers on same person lessened the damage and affliction point(afflictions where quantified, not apply affliction -> cure affliction) obviously with this a gang bang of 4 vs 1, the one is still going to lose, because no one should have the skills to beat 4 people alone unless the team is just that bad. However, I believe it would promote skill and tactical choice over raw focus kill someone in more even fights. And I'm not sure how that would apply to afflictions here, but it seems(from what I'm hearing) in group fights people tend to focus more on damage and less on syncing affs and locking people quickly because that requires a lot of forethought/coding/synergy and just plain isn't as good as raw damage.

And I know nothing is ever like reality when it comes to MUD logic, but if you think about it, 4 people all trying to attack the same person, it would be easy for that one person to POSITION himself in such a way it causes them to trip over themselves and block each other from landing blows, right?

Jules

In some situations it would be objectively better no matter who you are (i.e. when you are actually being ganked), and that does make it tempting.

But if you're really THAT good (and some people are), you might suddenly look around and realize that no one will play with you at all, because now they REALLY don't have a chance in hell. It's good for bragging rights, and you'll get to spend your days moaning that "no one will fight me", but that's about it. Would very possibly kill the resurgence in group combat we're finally getting dead in its tracks, too.

Ayden you sort of read my mind, though. I was going to say it might work if say, the guy who is least clueless hits first and always gets 100% of his attacks in. Derp #2 hits second and also gets 100% accuracy. Derp #3 gets... I don't know, a malus that actually matters though. And so forth.

That way you don't wreck everyone's offense, but a big team doesn't get to just whale on you. And in group fights it still makes sense for a team to focus on 1 or 2 targets, but they can't just blow them up.

I still really do worry that someone like Septus, or really, anyone who is both extremely artied and extremely skilled, would be practically unkillable though, and that's already fairly true. Septus mostly only dies because he's team leader and will sometimes linger at a fight that has gone south. 1 v. 1 I he's certainly -mobile-, but I don't think he bails if he's just flat out losing, so in a sense he chooses to die. As it is, when Sevhn was here, he was able to eliminate nearly ALL risk of his own death. Even in group fights. Once you do that, you're playing the game from a totally different place than most players (although part of that extreme mobility was summoner specific).

It's almost always the players who are less artied or less skilled, or both, who assume the most actual risk in PK, and I think that's so important to remember. If very good, very artied players assume high risk, it's because they go out of their way to, and they also don't have to worry much about getting in over their heads. Their default situation is much more comfortable than the average derp struggling with PK.

Ayden

I suppose I've never really played a game that is so heavily reliant on buying artifacts that directly effect PvP. So I'm not sure how heavily artifact'd people effect PvP here. But I'm not even saying Derp #3,4,5, -> infinity have to lose hits. I'm saying if 2 people attack one, damage attacks hit for 100% attacks, if 3 people attack the same person, damage attacks for all three are reduced to 90% of maxium, etc etc (obviously these numbers/percentages would need to be balanced, just using them for examples).

Edit: could also promote people to use afflictions more often since most affliction offenses don't rely on on laying thick damage while applying afflictions, and they wouldn't be missing afflictions.

Jules

Affliction gank would be freaking terrifying. If the people are very good and have automated or semi-automated offenses... When I dabbled in Aetolia, I pretty much felt obligated to use this system our Guild had, which was a totally automated coordinated afflicting thingy. It worked unbelievably well. But it was also pretty "meh" for me. It just uh, did its thing.

At the same time, I felt really discouraged from tinkering with my own stuff because... well, it might be a long time before I could build something half as good as this thing that people were practically shoving in my face. Aetolia is a really different game there, in that the affs are 100% trackable, but still, I'd hate to see a game where affs are king. I'm cool with them playing a role (and they actually do) but I don't want them to be "the meta" in the same way that people complain about a "damage meta". In short, I don't want to take a different path but end up at a similar end point.

But yeah, extreme damage could probably be toned down, and that might be a way to think about it (but I think the affs should miss along with the damage, otherwise you start to heavily favor super gimmicky aff offenses).

Ayden

Jules said:

Affliction gank would be freaking terrifying. If the people are very good and have automated or semi-automated offenses... When I dabbled in Aetolia, I pretty much felt obligated to use this system our Guild had, which was a totally automated coordinated afflicting thingy. It worked unbelievably well. But it was also pretty "meh" for me. At the same time, I felt really discouraged from tinkering with my own stuff because... well, it might be a long time before I could build something as good as people were practically shoving in my face. Aetolia is a really different game there, in that the affs are 100% trackable, but still, I'd hate to see a game where affs are king. I'm cool with them playing a role (and they actually do) but I don't want them to be "the meta" in the same way that people complain about a "damage meta". In short, I don't want to take a different path but end up at a similar end point.

But yeah, extreme damage could probably be toned down, and that might be a way to think about it.

its hard to find a complete balance in everything, impossible even, but I hate when things are so one sided one way or the other. Another MUD I pvp'd a bit in was a lot like what it sounds here, damage is king. I personally liked the idea of being an Assassin, which was the top affliction class in that game I would say. However, I was pretty much forced to play a stupidly easy-damage class(reads: I hit one button and don't have to do a damn thing else unless they escape somehow) to be effective not only in 1v1, but group battles because the knight-types in that game are ridiculously tanky and the only people who can mitigate their high output of physical-type damage long enough to fight them are other knights.

Jules

You can actually use affs really, really effectively. See Septus' longsword team, or Iluv and Sevhn's stuff. One big reason it feels like damage is king, is because damage is what most of your derps actually know how to do.

EDIT: not "your" derps per se, but derps in general.

Septus

Damage/aff hybrid offenses are actually king in teams atm. Bard, longswords, relapse trioxin would be good if there were more assassins. There's actually been a sharp cutoff in pure burst damage strategies lately.

Jules

The hardest thing now is that we just lost all of these very brilliant people who had also been playing for many many years and knew practically everything there was to know about combat in this game.

I think there are some real possible upsides there, too, and some major opportunities, but it would be silly to dismiss the gaping hole it leaves.

Dimitri

Silly you say? Good, then i shall dismiss it with a derisive snort and airy wave of my hand.

Ayden

Septus said:

Damage/aff hybrid offenses are actually king in teams atm. Bard, longswords, relapse trioxin would be good if there were more assassins. There's actually been a sharp cutoff in pure burst damage strategies lately.

Laeka begins chopping away at the neck of the corpse of Leighanna with a throwing axe.
H:(100) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:0 EXP:93.94 Essence:99 queue eqbal stand | west
Stand | west added to your EQBAL queue.
Septus stops you from moving that way.
H:(100) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:0 EXP:93.94 Essence:99 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(100) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:0 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
Septus's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
Septus barks at a keen-eyed falcon, ordering it to attack you.
Septus secures his previously wielded item and instantly draws a truesilver sabre into his right
hand.
Septus razes your aura of rebounding with a truesilver sabre.
Septus swings a truesilver sabre at you powerfully.
Damage Taken: 16 cutting, physical (raw damage: 30)
You suddenly find it hard to focus your senses.
You are afflicted with slow equilibrium.
Septus moves in to engage you.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
You quickly light your pipes, surrounding yourself with a cloud of smoke.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
You take a long drag off your pipe, filling your lungs with laurel smoke.
You are able to focus your senses once more.
You have cured slow equilibrium.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
Septus takes a long drag off his pipe, exhaling a thick, white haze.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
(Ring): Kabaal says, "Who knows? I just get popped by skill."
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You howl as a keen-eyed falcon hacks into you.
Damage Taken: 21 cutting (raw damage: 41)
H:(90) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:3 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Health Gain: 19
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:3 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Your wounds cause you to bleed 3 health.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
You have recovered your breath and can smoke once more.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take a long drag off your pipe, filling your lungs with linseed smoke.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Septus barks at a keen-eyed falcon, ordering it to attack you.
Septus secures his previously wielded item and instantly draws a primitive stone axe named Solution
into his right hand.
Septus reaves you furiously with a primitive stone axe named Solution.
Damage Taken: 69 cutting, physical (raw damage: 105)
Your hearing is suddenly restored.
Septus reaves you furiously with a primitive stone axe named Solution.
Damage Taken: 71 cutting, physical (raw damage: 107)
A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
You are afflicted with sensitivity.
Septus raises his arms in a beckoning gesture and the Rite of Cleansing flares wildly, surrounding
you in a violent outburst of devotional energy.
Damage Taken: 58 electricity, mental (raw damage: 31)
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Laeka's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Laeka takes a long drag off her pipe, exhaling a thick, white haze.
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take 1 maidenhair leaf, bringing the total to 385.
You quickly eat a maidenhair leaf.
The stinging feeling fades.
You have cured sensitivity.
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take a drink of an elixir of health from a wooden vial.
Health Gain: 56
The elixir heals your body.
H:(58) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take 1 toadstool, bringing the total to 1412.
You quickly eat a toadstool.
Health Gain: 39
You feel your health and mana replenished.
H:(68) M:(100) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(68) M:(100) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
A soothing light envelops Owyn momentarily.
Owyn's expression no longer looks so vacant.
H:(68) M:(99) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You may eat another herb or plant.
H:(68) M:(99) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take 1 juniper berry, bringing the total to 730.
You quickly eat a juniper berry.
Silence engulfs you as your hearing fades.
H:(68) M:(99) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You suddenly perceive the vague outline of an aura of rebounding around Septus.
H:(68) M:(99) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 tumble w
You begin to tumble agilely to the west.
Balance Taken: 5.78s
H:(68) M:(99) (e-) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You have recovered your breath and can smoke once more.
H:(68) M:(99) (e-) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:96
Owyn's Seraphic guardian's eyes glow menacingly at you.
H:(68) M:(99) (e-) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:100
Septus's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
Septus barks at a keen-eyed falcon, ordering it to attack you.
Septus reaves you furiously with a primitive stone axe named Solution.
Damage Taken: 72 cutting, physical (raw damage: 109)
Your hearing is suddenly restored.
Septus reaves you furiously with a primitive stone axe named Solution.
Damage Taken: 73 cutting, physical (raw damage: 111)
Extreme heat roars through your body at the touch of a primitive stone axe named Solution.
You are afflicted with ablaze.
Damage Taken: 63 fire, mental (raw damage: 49)
A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
You are afflicted with sensitivity.
Septus raises his arms in a beckoning gesture and the Rite of Piety flares wildly, surrounding you
in a violent outburst of devotional energy.
The devotional energy proves to be too much for your body to handle and your charred corpse drops to
the ground.
You have been slain by Septus.
You have nothing that can be stored in the Rift.
Damage Taken: 74 electricity, mental (raw damage: 39)

You may eat another herb or plant.

Your consciousness shifts, and you feel your body no more.

You may drink another healing elixir.

You feel an aura of rebounding surround you.

You may eat another toadstool.

You cannot tumble in that direction.

Your soul climbs free of your body and is drawn down into the underworld.


So damage/aff hybrid is spam strychnine huh?

Gjarrus

The hybrid stuff works with 2-3 per side. Once you get into 4+, the lack of any focus fire mitigation mechanics means it's a DPS check mixed with a little bit of gimmickiness thrown in for flavor.

If they do ever get around to adding something (that is so desperately needed) like that, they also have to find a way to nerf things like fully kitted knights tanking 5+ people with shield/reflect spam without destroying their P2W model.

Septus

Ayden said:

Septus said:

Damage/aff hybrid offenses are actually king in teams atm. Bard, longswords, relapse trioxin would be good if there were more assassins. There's actually been a sharp cutoff in pure burst damage strategies lately.

Laeka begins chopping away at the neck of the corpse of Leighanna with a throwing axe.
H:(100) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:0 EXP:93.94 Essence:99 queue eqbal stand | west
Stand | west added to your EQBAL queue.
Septus stops you from moving that way.
H:(100) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:0 EXP:93.94 Essence:99 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(100) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:0 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
Septus's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
Septus barks at a keen-eyed falcon, ordering it to attack you.
Septus secures his previously wielded item and instantly draws a truesilver sabre into his right
hand.
Septus razes your aura of rebounding with a truesilver sabre.
Septus swings a truesilver sabre at you powerfully.
Damage Taken: 16 cutting, physical (raw damage: 30)
You suddenly find it hard to focus your senses.
You are afflicted with slow equilibrium.
Septus moves in to engage you.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
You quickly light your pipes, surrounding yourself with a cloud of smoke.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
You take a long drag off your pipe, filling your lungs with laurel smoke.
You are able to focus your senses once more.
You have cured slow equilibrium.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
Septus takes a long drag off his pipe, exhaling a thick, white haze.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
(Ring): Kabaal says, "Who knows? I just get popped by skill."
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You howl as a keen-eyed falcon hacks into you.
Damage Taken: 21 cutting (raw damage: 41)
H:(90) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:3 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Health Gain: 19
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:3 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Your wounds cause you to bleed 3 health.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
You have recovered your breath and can smoke once more.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take a long drag off your pipe, filling your lungs with linseed smoke.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(94) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Septus barks at a keen-eyed falcon, ordering it to attack you.
Septus secures his previously wielded item and instantly draws a primitive stone axe named Solution
into his right hand.
Septus reaves you furiously with a primitive stone axe named Solution.
Damage Taken: 69 cutting, physical (raw damage: 105)
Your hearing is suddenly restored.
Septus reaves you furiously with a primitive stone axe named Solution.
Damage Taken: 71 cutting, physical (raw damage: 107)
A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
You are afflicted with sensitivity.
Septus raises his arms in a beckoning gesture and the Rite of Cleansing flares wildly, surrounding
you in a violent outburst of devotional energy.
Damage Taken: 58 electricity, mental (raw damage: 31)
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Laeka's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 queue eqbal stand | east
Laeka takes a long drag off her pipe, exhaling a thick, white haze.
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take 1 maidenhair leaf, bringing the total to 385.
You quickly eat a maidenhair leaf.
The stinging feeling fades.
You have cured sensitivity.
H:(44) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take a drink of an elixir of health from a wooden vial.
Health Gain: 56
The elixir heals your body.
H:(58) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take 1 toadstool, bringing the total to 1412.
You quickly eat a toadstool.
Health Gain: 39
You feel your health and mana replenished.
H:(68) M:(100) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
Stand | east added to your EQBAL queue.
There is no exit in that direction.
H:(68) M:(100) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
A soothing light envelops Owyn momentarily.
Owyn's expression no longer looks so vacant.
H:(68) M:(99) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You may eat another herb or plant.
H:(68) M:(99) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You take 1 juniper berry, bringing the total to 730.
You quickly eat a juniper berry.
Silence engulfs you as your hearing fades.
H:(68) M:(99) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You suddenly perceive the vague outline of an aura of rebounding around Septus.
H:(68) M:(99) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98 tumble w
You begin to tumble agilely to the west.
Balance Taken: 5.78s
H:(68) M:(99) (e-) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:98
You have recovered your breath and can smoke once more.
H:(68) M:(99) (e-) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:96
Owyn's Seraphic guardian's eyes glow menacingly at you.
H:(68) M:(99) (e-) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:100
Septus's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
Septus barks at a keen-eyed falcon, ordering it to attack you.
Septus reaves you furiously with a primitive stone axe named Solution.
Damage Taken: 72 cutting, physical (raw damage: 109)
Your hearing is suddenly restored.
Septus reaves you furiously with a primitive stone axe named Solution.
Damage Taken: 73 cutting, physical (raw damage: 111)
Extreme heat roars through your body at the touch of a primitive stone axe named Solution.
You are afflicted with ablaze.
Damage Taken: 63 fire, mental (raw damage: 49)
A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
You are afflicted with sensitivity.
Septus raises his arms in a beckoning gesture and the Rite of Piety flares wildly, surrounding you
in a violent outburst of devotional energy.
The devotional energy proves to be too much for your body to handle and your charred corpse drops to
the ground.
You have been slain by Septus.
You have nothing that can be stored in the Rift.
Damage Taken: 74 electricity, mental (raw damage: 39)

You may eat another herb or plant.

Your consciousness shifts, and you feel your body no more.

You may drink another healing elixir.

You feel an aura of rebounding surround you.

You may eat another toadstool.

You cannot tumble in that direction.

Your soul climbs free of your body and is drawn down into the underworld.


So damage/aff hybrid is spam strychnine huh?

A monk, templar and priest walk into a bar.

Everyone else says ouch.

But in all seriousness, you're probably going to be disappointed if you base the meta around what I'm doing. The reality is you need hybrid offenses to put down artefact titans, and since we just lost a lot of those, you'll probably see a shift back away from hybrids now and towards more traditional damage burst.

Ayden

Septus said:

A monk, templar and priest walk into a bar.

Everyone else says ouch.

But in all seriousness, you're probably going to be disappointed if you base the meta around what I'm doing. The reality is you need hybrid offenses to put down artefact titans, and since we just lost a lot of those, you'll probably see a shift back away from hybrids now and towards more traditional damage burst.

fair enough, was just kinda pointing out this topic is still really relevant. not angry I was just teasing really. but yeah, that shift and the artefact load pretty much makes it so newbs like me with nothing are nothing but 3 second meat shields.

Septus

Its an unfortunate reality now that a lot of the hugely artefacted guys are gone that the few outliers that we do have active atm are a lot more problematic in that respect.

Hopefully we'll pick up some more artefacted monster retirees (sup Tyden) to balance the scales a little.

Ayden

Septus said:

Its an unfortunate reality now that a lot of the hugely artefacted guys are gone that the few outliers that we do have active atm are a lot more problematic in that respect.

Hopefully we'll pick up some more artefacted monster retirees (sup Tyden) to balance the scales a little.

true, but if you want people like me who have almost no credits, completely new people, to buy into the pvp, they need a way to be useful for more than 3 seconds of combat while going through the almighty grind for credits/artefacts. not everyone can afford $1000 dollars for a surcoat(myself included in this), so my best option is to wait 7- months for my membership to accumulate, or hope I get lucky in an event/come into a lot of gold. And that's just one of the many artefacts that will eventually be required to be on par with the 'outliers'. I'm more likely to slug at this for half a year or less and get fustrated, then quit, because this is unfortunately my abrasive personality xD

I'm not saying hit damage with the hugest nerfbazooka there is. but it could be notched down a bit to prevent going lol focus boom. Positioning is a great idea, and would make it so that the damage/aff hybrid never leaves the spotlight, which I think is more fun than having it one extreme or the other. Combat is more interesting when you pick and choose your targets, and are rewarded for making the tactical choice. I'd even say picking on the newb is a rewarding tactical choice, but all it does is discourage said newb.

In short, if the newb doesn't have a fighting chance, its more than likely going to run them away thus taking any future money investment with them.

Tyden

Honestly i think the team with the bigger stick/ie numbers is more of a concern in Imperian than artifacts.

In a recent shardfall:

I won a 1v1 twice in a row, then got answered by a 4v1. Instantly died, went back and same result. The worst realization was netting negative experience for two deaths by 4 people than gaining experience for killing a player in a 1v1. Roughly 30% in loss for breaking even 2 kills 2 deaths.

Edit:

Being the only or sole representative of an org isn't going to be fun, but there should be some filters placed to ensure an equal playing field and not just a # game. I also understand it happens at times where my org has #'s, but that doesn't change my view.



Hai Septus....most my MKO people left for Lusternia. (No clue why)

Ayden

I totally agree that the group with the bigger numbers nuking people is just as ridiculous. but you obviously haven't been hit by the big stick Septus carries while wearing 0 artefacts either. xD Also you lost experience? I haven't experienced that, else I should have been hammered back down a few PK levels. x.x

Tyden

Using Septus as a measuring stick as a player starting off/no credits is not somewhere I'd start. Sure I have a lot of credits, but I don't really eye up Septus as someone I need to compare myself to or even desire to beat. If I can compete with him, awesome.

The issue players that have little to no credit investment face is the need to feel compared to Septus/etc/etc. Because there is no mid-tier combat going on to eye up your "peers" some would say.

That isn't your fault, artifact players fault, or even the administration. It's things that everyone combined can come together to solve or just keep pushing it aside.

Lartus

When in doubt, @Ayden find allies to bring someone down. This is Imperian, use every dirty trick and skill at your disposal.

Kiskan

3-way fights are a damn mess when they actually happen, much like 3-way anything, I imagine >.> This is what the system is designed to do when there are 3 reasonably strong circles, so it isn't anyone's fault. I think I said something like "it's funny when it happens about once a RL year, and that's exactly how often it should happen" when I mentioned 3 circle fights before. But, we do want 3 strong circles. I mean, I sure want that. Not sure what to do there. But what is funny once in awhile is not what I want to see on a regular basis for sure.

Zorantiz

If you want 3 strong Orgs then you need to reduce the barrier to entry of Imperian cost-wise in order to attract more players.

Lartus

I prefer cutting it down to two.

Kiskan

I think there's a lot of agreement that "something" needs to happen with barrier to entry. I originally wrote a bit about that, but decided I just wanted to address this 3 circle blessing/curse for the moment.

I just mean, when 3 teams actually meet on the field, it's basically a trainwreck. Obelisks preclude that I think, but I don't know if that's the answer if we continue to see 3-circle shardfalls. Probably not tbh, because just as often two circles who have less people on at the moment will team up (but that's different than having a longstanding alliance).

I go back and forth on whether going to two circles is a solution for this and other problems. It might be if the current orgs remained, so that players could remain grouped with people they like (or at least tolerate well enough)? I think you'd have to be willing to regularly split rings back up, which in theory isn't a huge deal (in theory).

Zerin

Re: Artifacts. There are quite a few bosses that drop temporary artifacts, remember! They last a week and usually there are people willing to help you out to get them. So I think that lowers the "buy-in" barrier by a bit, at least.

Kyraic

Ayden said:

H:(100) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:0 EXP:93.94 Essence:99
Septus's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
Septus barks at a keen-eyed falcon, ordering it to attack you.
Septus secures his previously wielded item and instantly draws a truesilver sabre into his right
hand.
Septus razes your aura of rebounding with a truesilver sabre.
Septus swings a truesilver sabre at you powerfully.
Damage Taken: 16 cutting, physical (raw damage: 30)
You suddenly find it hard to focus your senses.
You are afflicted with slow equilibrium.
Septus moves in to engage you.
H:(95) M:(95) (eb) Bleed:1 EXP:93.94 Essence:99

From this, a 16 damage sabre RSL does 5% of your health in damage. 16*20 = 320, so you're at roughly 320 max health. This is very low. And judging by your damage taken numbers, you have relatively few resistances as well.

Septus, on the other hand, has every relevant offensive artifact at L3(Maybe just L2 intelligence?).

There is no way in the world that you should be able to tank that with your current power level. If you could, why would anybody ever bother to buy artifacts?

Ayden said:

true, but if you want people like me who have almost no credits, completely new people, to buy into the pvp, they need a way to be useful for more than 3 seconds of combat while going through the almighty grind for credits/artefacts.

You work together with your faction. You come up with ways to neutralize him. You get tanky knights on your side to throw you a defend. Coordinate your afflictions and gun him down with Bards. Work on druid mana kills.

And you accept the fact that sometimes you are going to die in fights and that sometimes your role might be soaking the first wave of fire and dying while your teammates set up their kills.

Swale

What do people think about placing general limits (of some kind) on reflection ritual use (as in, how much you can use it)?  It's come up before and people seemed really receptive to placing limits on it, but it just hasn't happened yet.

In addition to limiting usage in some way, one simple change that might help a lot is that double raze could remove two reflections, not just one.  It would be a widely available counter, and it means that the reflection ritual is still a VERY effective turtle in most smallish teams, but it might be enough to allow non-casters to persist on their current target instead of absolutely having to switch.  People could pop the ritual twice, and still (probably?) force an actual switch, but now they're a lot lower on faith.  Okay, that's short and sweet version.  Don't read further unless you want to see my dissertation on "reflections, what DO about them"?

EDIT:  it would also be a lot easier to track when someone should and shouldn't be able to use the ritual, which is probably something we should all be thinking about even now, and is sort of how I got to thinking about this (are they illusioning, it basically).  You can flat out test by doing a single double raze, which is probably what I need to do for now, maybe, if I have any doubt.  To be clear though, I think it's more about faith alone not being a very big limiter at all, especially for the side that is winning.  


------------------------------STOP STOP STOP------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://pastebin.com/ZtxrVEZx