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Issuing and being issued
Dreacor
Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭
Hey!
I think we need a new, separate topic for this. There has been situations where people doesn't know when to issue or when to not. Please, let us know what is the situation here and what is solved in an instant. All that information if precious for us since we have new players that might not know all the Imperian's rules. If there's no issues, tell us why something should be issued or not issued. I hope this will give us the general way what to do with issues or not. Thank you for the co-operation.
-Dreacor Blackfyrre
I think we need a new, separate topic for this. There has been situations where people doesn't know when to issue or when to not. Please, let us know what is the situation here and what is solved in an instant. All that information if precious for us since we have new players that might not know all the Imperian's rules. If there's no issues, tell us why something should be issued or not issued. I hope this will give us the general way what to do with issues or not. Thank you for the co-operation.
-Dreacor Blackfyrre
0
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Comments
There are some really fundamental things that I don't think most players really understand - including the limits of what the PK rules and issue system are really intended to do, and how much wiggle room is actually in the rules. To be fair, the rules are rather cagey about this. The rules DO tend to give players the impression that if they truly just mind their own business, they shouldn't become a target. That is well, sooooort of true. But not quite.
EDIT: there is also the problem that a lot of Jeremy's first big post there applies to a lot of people. You do have to avoid the obvious pitfalls first. What I don't think everyone realizes is that even if you are following all of that good common sense stuff, people can still find ways to come after you if they really want to.
Nowadays, with the "designated" pvp zones (shardfalls)...I dont know. That stuff never really interested me.
OT: I've only had to deal with issues twice in Imperian, personally.
- Mouthy leader who was persistent in kicking me from city during an election, despite it being quite clearly against the rules, particularly when her reason was "I don't want you voting against me." - Oddly enough she ended up leaving the city instead, when I issued her.
- Issued for taking a hit on someone and killing them when they were out bashing. They were pretty persistent I had no reason to kill them, and that I was gonna get shrubbed. That issue got dismissed pretty fast.
Some people are pretty stuck into the idea of not reading the rules, or only ever point towards the rules when it works in their favour, despite constantly breaking the rules in question they're pointing to. Fortunately the majority of those types (from my experience) have either stopped playing, or retired.If someone is doing something that actually warrants them being issued, chances are they're at least partially an idiot anyway. How not to get issued is pretty common sense. Case in point: one of her buddies was using ouroboros MINDREAD to listen to a completely obviously OOC conversation, she decided that it wasn't OOC and tried using that as a reason for kicking me and a friend. Doesn't work like that sorry.
If it gave you one when it was issued/taken, it would be pretty easy to permanently avoid having them completed. With the thin man hits though, multiple people can take the hit; first to complete it gets the reward and the hit is completed. Everyone else who wanted to take it, is SOL.
Anything that I hear inside the game itself can be taken as 100% IC. Anything. It doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter if you put up your ((rp shields)) or if you erect your //rpbarrier. If I hear it, I can take it as IC and I can act on it. Any channel, any subject, with anybody. The only exceptions to this are if you are talking to Jeremy and the other OOC admin characters. Everything else is IC and actionable.
If it were much looser than that, everyone would have insult PK on each other after every shardfall/gank/mono fight, pretty sure.
If that was the case, there also wouldn't be clans that are explicitly OOC, where you can't bring said "information" IC. Stuff that has also been ruled against, when it has risen. Tells function the exact same way, sorry!
@Kiskan: Mindread is tells only.
eta: "Anything involving you as a player of the game, rather than your character as a person who lives and exists here, is OOC." Case in point: Just because you hear the name of a character who happens to be in the game, (especially when it's not your character), that doesn't mean you can bring it IC and say "But I heard them say my name!!!!"
Now if she'd heard that conversation and ganked you both, she'd be golden.
Ah. Tells a bit easier to account for.
Were she to "gank us" for hearing from a third party (as this one was), about a conversation that was not actually about her character, she'd have gotten in more ****. See: the quote from HELP OOC that I just mentioned.
Metagaming/seconds abuse/ooc faff in general has been the one thing that has been consistently issuable since day 0.
I don't remember this instance. But, we are not normally going to get involved in people getting kicked out from a city unless it involves an election happening. We may get involved if someone kicked you because you were about to challenge them.
If you say something about another player in the game, or talk about your plans in the game, we are not going to police if it is OOC or not.
If someone is kicking people from a city because of personal grudges, that is fine. People do not have to have any reason to kick you out of a city. They can just hate you and kick you. The person either has the political capital to get away with it, or other people in the city will get tired of it and remove them. Politics, building alliances, and enemies are all part of the game. It's kind of like Survivor (not that I watch the show) and can be played like that.
People who are following all of the "guidelines" let's say, are going to get super frustrated if they end up targeted, because they had a misconception that admin provides SOME protection. But the guidelines are more to keep yourself out of the crosshairs in the first place. Admin is not (mostly) going to say "okay, you were holding up your end of the bargain (so to speak), and your attempts at IC resolution failed, so we actually will tell BillBob to stop beating the tar out of you".
I felt pretty sure that was true coming in to the conversation, but now I feel more confident that it's true. And it's fine to say "that's how it is" but I think players should be made much, much more aware right away that they are NOT protected from most sorts of griefiness, and that it's pretty much on them to either not get on a griefer's list, or to be able to have the wherewithal (political or combat, or both) to strike back effectively. I mean, the relevant help files should be written more like... admin will usually not interfere with the game for any reason, and will only step in if say, you're logging in everyday, and someone is killing you everyday. If you start logging in less? And they still kill you every time? Probably on your own. People need to understand how hands off admin really is, basically, and the current rules make things sound gentler than that, so people think they have more protection than they really do.
Also, I've never watched Survivor either, but the whole point is to be a backstabbing asshat
EDIT: and of course the whole thing can still be a fairly livable situation - depending on how the game's mechanics are done, and whether they make the landing softer (or harder) for people who might end up rogue for a bit, or someone who is being targeted by some people, and so forth.
As a side note, there is no "notice" when someone puts out a hit on you. (On the other hand, if you get bountied by an org, there is a message you get.) IIRC, certain (bashing) mobs you kill can also hire out assassin contracts, so it's not just players that can do it.
And yeah, I was figuring you probably don't get a line when someone takes out the hit (but was thinking you probably get a line when someone completes it - and yeah, I bet it is the kind of thing you'd easily miss unless you'd seen it before and have it highlighted, or check logs). You can go talk to the guy and see what jobs he has though, and I THINK he would tell you if you were one of them (if someone jumps you while you're talking to him and you get the death line, that's an answer too).
All of this is probably why Lusternia ended up using a mob to get the job done. A mob doesn't care if it ruffles OOC feathers by getting the job done. The problem is that most PK-ers are on friendly terms with one another on an OOC level. There are some exceptions, but that's the general rule, so it's hard to get them to go after each other in such a personal way. Because a hit really is saying "I don't even know what you did, but I don't care, I'm up for killing you on behalf of whoever wanted this contract". Worse, if the contract is on a big name PK-er, chances are that it was taken out by a non-com, and PK-ers often have very, very heavy disdain for non-coms and don't think they deserve recourse in the first place (get gud, noob). Bounties, in contrast, often get cleared in the course of ordinary PK. I think those, too, would sit and rot a bit if they worked more like contracts.
Also, I found an interesting snippet about Survivor. I never watched it, but I do remember reading that the first season was probably the most interesting, and apparently it's the 6th season that REALLY changed the game forever. This is why I really don't like Survivor as an idea, and certainly don't want to play it. You really only need to read page 28 if you're interested, and possibly a bit before and after if you want, but page 28 has the meat of why a game like Survivor is problematic (especially long term):
https://books.google.com/books?id=FdrILXwh7nEC&lpg=PA28&ots=tUWXWDrrgQ&dq=survivor%20show%20psychology&pg=PA27#v=onepage&q=survivor%20show%20psychology&f=false
EDIT: and that is basically just how it is, but to say "people in this game have been upset to learn that their ((rp shields)) could not protect them from the consequences of trashtalking" without recognizing that that standard is never applied anything close to equally, is just too much galloping hypocrisy to let slide.