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Split Wheel Spin Discussion
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This discussion was created from comments split from: Improving Imperian.
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At least make it 5..
(Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."
(Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
Before it was 30 - 10(assembly) = 20 + 1(ethereal crap) = 21 return
Now it is 25 - 1(assembly) - 1(ethereal crap) = 23 return
But wait, 23 is better than 21? Nah, because before you could lower the cost if you bought spins in bulk.
The only upside to this wheel is the best prize increased from 100 credits to 250. I have a feeling the admins are putting value into bombs, emitters, beacons, etc but those things don't hold value to the playerbase when it is a one use item for most.
I'm not going to waste 16 credits(sonic emitter's tradein value) to reset a leyline. That is a ONE use item. Is resetting a leyline worth 16 credits? Absolutely not, because someone is going to come up right after and reset it to their faction's best interest
16 credits x 25K(very generous credit value right now) = 400,000 gold to reset a leyline
Assembly pieces held little value before this wheel and decreasing the value to 1 credit further devalues the pieces. The market is flooded with them. The only way they will rise in value is if we miraculously have a surge in player population.
I know the point of the wheel is a gamble, but there is a difference between gambling and just robbery. Yes, we don't have to spin and is entirely optional, so I've been opting not to spin and only doing so when I have a chance at the jackpot.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
Moreover, while the value of the better prizes has been increased, the pool of items that I, at least, am interested in, is much less this time (basically maybe three of the earrings 2 of which I already have and one of the special promo items). So as such, the odds of me getting something I want from the wheel is much smaller.
Unless you get a scepter gem or a useless earring, the return on the website spins is slightly better if not on par with phylacteries, but ONLY if you do the 50 package.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
Yeah ... no thanks.
I'm all for calling out the faults of the wheel, but Imperian allows us to buy credit spins as well as website spins. We also get a free spin daily, granted the free spins prizes aren't anything to write home about, free is free. Get 8000 gold today from the wheel? Lame. I'll come back tomorrow and hope for a phylactery. Achaea doesn't have free spins and if you want to spin at all, you're going to be paying out of your real life pocket.
That is one thing I appreciate here and it was something they highlighted during the recent stream is that they want to make sure that you can still participate and get involved in things without spending real money. Which is why we have a promo market and why we can pretty much trade any promo items between each other(this month we got earrings for example). This is valuable to our economy.
All the prizes you can win from the paid website spins are prizes you can win with credit spins. It's also stuff you can buy freely from the promo market provided you have the credits to spend.
Yes, you have to spend $300+ to get a value from the paid spins, but smaller options are available if you don't want to spend that much. The value isn't as great, but the value is still there. Yes, this is a game, but we come here knowing it is a commercial MUD.
Personally, I prefer playing here because I know the game is actually looked after and cared for. And I know if I have problems, I'm going to get a response in a reasonable time from admin. But look, they have to eat and they have to make a living and if they are a business who wishes to grow, they're going to want to profit. So that's why they charge us money for virtual items and currencies. I'm 100% with buying things to support this game, but that's also my choice as an adult as it is yours.
When it comes down to it, at the end of the day, when you buy credits or buy promotional spins/phylacteries/lesson packages, etc, what you are paying for is convenience. You can 100% get everything you want from this game from simply bashing and earning gold, but it's going to take you a significantly longer time to do so. It is going to depend on how you value your time.
That's a lot for me to say, but to touch on the comment about adults with responsibility.. well adulting ain't easy and for what it is worth, the game is still Free To Play and will always be. You can also get lucky and get a phylactery on your free spin and end up with a 500 credit artifact from it.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
IRE was one of the first companies to get a foot in the door with this model. It's a shame to see them fail to learn from the evolution of free to play/pay for perks. Microtransactions are good business strategy for a whole lot of reasons and the wheel spins are a perfect opportunity to utilize them. A few dollars? I'll throw that around without thinking too much about it. $300? That'll make me stop and seriously consider whether or not I want it. $300 for a potential of something I -might- want and a guarantee of a whole lot of junk I don't? Not even remotely enticing.
IRE's intro credit package/lesson package was a great idea (and one I've bought into on a few characters). IRE's decision to put things like the paid spins at a -starting point- of $50? Terrible idea.
The solution to a shrinking player base should never be to raise prices.
As for concern about them eating? Matt and Jeremy are not hurting. They are taking international vacations off the money earned from these games. If they want -my- hard earned cash (I do not take international vacations), they are going to have to make the virtual offerings just a tad more sensible.
I'm not even in the realm of the top 10% of spenders in IRE and I've personally spent many thousands of dollars in my decade of playing here. I am happy to support a game I enjoy playing. I'm happy to give over my money when the exchange seems reasonable. The paid spins are not reasonable. I was buying these like crazy when they were cheaper (but in Aetolia, where the rewards were better, because they sucked here).
While we are on that subject, IRE, get on the microtransactions bandwagon. Sell those vanity pets and ancient promo items and junk that people pile up from the wheel for small dollar amounts. Make them bound to character. Do that instead of making other offerings ridiculously overpriced.
That's one of the reasons we got the starter packages (again, that as a GREAT idea). And that's a solid reason why stuff like wheel spins, which is a gamble, shouldn't take a several hundred dollar investment to be worthwhile.
In all seriousness, you don't have to educate me on the history of IRE. As a fan of MUDs, I'm well aware of the role they've played in virtual goods having a real money value. And I'm going to sound like a jerk when I say this, but whether or not the CEO of President of the company takes international vacations really isn't relevant to this conversation. The modus operandi of businesses has always been to profit and I don't blame them for trying to make a profit. We have a mutually beneficial relationship in that they provide me with entertainment and I provide them with money when I buy into their virtual goods. Even people who spend ZERO on their games benefit the company as they keep the world populated and MUDs are multi-user dungeons. The name in and of itself should explain that it is a social game.
Taking a dump on their success and standard of living is low. And it isn't like they blow all the money on themselves either, they also have other staff they pay and from the numbers they have published and what they ask when you code or build for them, it's quite competitive. They have operation costs as well. Yes, MUDs don't cost much to run but they are a commercial MUD and a certain standard is expected of them. They have to have servers that are stable all around, 24/7. Those servers better have good backups daily. They also have legal fees and such they have to pay to operate on the scale that they do. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a lawyer on retainer. This isn't a hobby MUD, there is a certain level of professionalism that is expected of them the moment they take people's RL money.
It is demonstrated when there is an issue that impacts gameplay and they fix it immediately. If something critical happens at 3AM, I'm willing to bet Jeremy has to wake up and fix it.
That type of thinking, while popular in the gaming community is harmful. Why do we expect game developers and builders to live on the bare minimum and be motivated simply by passion for gaming? I see this type of response in so many gaming forums.
Okay, here is my second wind..
Is $45 a high entry point for last month's promo? Absolutely. Is $300+ a huge amount to pay to find value in a package? Absolutely. But the price for spins dropped significantly the more you bought, and that's the reason why it is that way. One, it's to entice people to spend more to get more. Two, it is to reward higher spenders with a discount.
I completely get your point that there should have been a lower entry into the paid part of the promotion and that could be something they could do better with in the future. Personally, I think the pricing of some artifacts as well as some promos are a bit out of touch with reality and I'm curious to know the thought process behind the pricing of these items.
However..
Sell those vanity pets and ancient promo items and junk that people pile up from the wheel for small dollar amounts. Make them bound to character. Do that instead of making other offerings ridiculously overpriced.
Please no. Especially to the make them bound to a character. I buy into promos knowing that I can sell some of the things I get for credit value(earrings for example). I specifically took the gamble myself to spin, hoping for earrings that I could sell for a profit. And others paid the prices for the earrings I set because they rather pay 100-150 credits for an earring than waste it on spins HOPING to get an earring or they simply didn't want to spend RL money.
Vanity pets/familiars/assembly market is saturated. Barely anyone is willing to pay credits for it, I doubt anyone will pay RL money for it.
I have words for your second post, but I think I've said enough. Also, you gave me a bit of inspiration here.. I'm going to create a new character, level 1-100 and see how long it takes me trans my 3 guild skills without spending a dime on the game. I'll mull this over and make a thread on it and work out some rules I'll set for myself.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
Without iron elite and the no brainer packages, the amount of money IRE would have gotten out of me in my 14 years of playing is 200$ - from exactly 1 credit purchase in 2005. Oh, and they got me to impulse spend 15$ on stockings.
I have not spent money directly on credits since then for the simple reason that I saw how far 600 credits/200$ went. I don't think 33 cents a pop is an unreasonable cost at all, but I cannot afford to buy bulk, and I cannot justify spending less to get less value because it goes against the same sensibilities that make me to buy cheap paper towels.
I have made every character in IRE expecting to spend no money on them. 90% of the time I haven't. I -have- spent money on my Imperian characters, because instead of asking me if Oystir is worth 100$ for 300 credits (which is where the per credit cost starts to be worth it to me), they ask now if he's worth 1 penny for 1000 lessons, then however much for 100 bound credits, then is he worth a monthly sub, etc. And I definitely had to prepare to make these purchases, both by committing to the purchase and then actually budgeting for and making the purchase - which is a process that can take days or weeks, even just for the 10$.
But more importantly, while they are asking all of these questions, they also whisper, 'you can turn coding and time into credits' and kind of nudge my arm like it's some big secret and at the end of the day, for me, that is the value that must be beat before I'm willing to spend on lessons/credits. It is easier to circumvent that entry fee for cosmetics with no in-game alternative, but for a lot of people that's a higher bar, not a lower one.
I say all this because I want to impress on you that if you want to experience this game the way those of us who have to or choose to invest time and energy instead of finances, your perception of what is worth putting into a character is going to exist on an entirely different plane. I just want to ask you to stay aware of this, as some of your phrasing in the last couple of posts have given me pause, and I am prepared to heavily endorse the worth of time and energy if you are preparing yourself to try to judge that.
Also, sidenote,
I am the last person in this game who takes enjoyment out of these collectibles, especially the GD assembly items and fragments and pretty much anything on the promo market that *has* to be in your inventory (WHY???), and I can still think of a few instances off the top of my head where I would've given up my weekly Jamba Juice to get the exactly 1 assembly piece I was missing (prior to token ware), or exactly the 1 vanitypet I cared about that Khizan wouldn't sell me, etc. I'd honestly probably just browse a microtrans* store specifically to let myself opt-out of the effort of having to care about something long enough to look for it on the promo market or the 19 help scrolls.
Edit: I recognize that I said "I am poor" and "I hate vanitypets but I'd spend 2$ on one" in the same post and I think that's kind of the goal.
This is a game though and it isn't a necessity. Whether or not you choose to spend money on the game will not impact your life in any significant way. It is free to play, always has been and from what I can tell, always will be. One of the most popular MUDs of all time recently just went subscription free(not sure the rules on naming other MUDs here, so I won't), so I'd argue that if anything IRE was ahead of its time.
I totally get what you guys are saying, but you guys are also dumping on the company because they want to make money. Again, I will reiterate the fact that businesses and their whole entire purpose is to make money. If they were a fast food place, the avenue to make money would be selling food, but since they are a gaming company, they're going to sell you virtual goods.
You all have to realize too that MUDs are a niche market. Niche markets are always overpriced compared to regular, mainstream markets as there is a smaller pool of consumers. Therefore, there will be a premium charge on goods.
And this is going to be extremely insensitive and you can downvote me or call me names or whatever, but your financial situation isn't a concern of this game, IRE, or anyone else's but your own. To bring that argument to the table makes no sense to me. It doesn't change the value of items in the game and I'm sorry that you can't afford to drop $10 or $1000 on entertainment a month, but that really isn't anyone's problem but your own.
Why should the company or any business for that matter lower the price of their goods to accommodate your financial situation? If the argument is that they should have lower entry points, then yeah, absolutely, but I think they cover that pretty well with Iron Elite, Lesson packages and the credit package.
And if you guys think the only way to make credits in the game is bashing, then well, I don't think this conversation should continue because there are VARIOUS avenues to make credits/gold, it's just going to be slightly tougher because of our low population. It isn't entirely impossible.
Edit: Going to edit here and say this too, because I think you are also talking about the pricing of in game items(200 doesn't go far, no). I do agree that artifacts and some promos are grossly overpriced and the pricing behind them is out of touch with reality. I've said as much in other threads.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
F2P within Imperian is also becoming more difficult because the only real way to turn game time into power is purchasing credits off the market, and there are more and more powerbashers with fewer and fewer people needing gold. Last time I was doing the numbers in one of my off-screen rants, it was about ~200 hours of bashing for someone to go from noob to tritrans assuming they had my productivity (lol), including bound credits from leveling. You can say there are other avenues, but no, there really isn't. You need the start of that gold income or a credit purchase to get to the point where other things work aside from maybe non-licensed design work (low rate of work) or being a roleplay escort (lots of competition
I don't care so much about being able to buy high-end artis taking forever, but core gameplay being unaccessible without an unreasonable investment of time/money from a new player is disastrous.
There are other avenues to make credits, because you're not aware of them doesn't mean they don't exist. Non-licensed design is a good one, but that isn't steady and the others don't involve escorting in anyway, roleplaying or not.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
Playing the credit market? Need gold or credits. Playing the promo market? Need gold, credits, or promo buy-ins + people actually buying. Questing? Not even close to my gold output, not counting body turn-in quests (and even then). Bound credits are available in a very minor way that was nerfed heavily recently. Main Crafting/production skills require a 280c investment before you start making basically nothing, even if you become one of Arakis's harvest bots. PvP is a gold drain. Events are decent spikes even if you just get participation credits, but that's not part of the core game.
E: I also do some coding work here and there aside from my basher, which again is not really part of the game's mechanics.
I *am* the F2P player with the benefit of easily a couple Gs invested in the game and a decade of play time. So, the point remains that it's hundreds of hours of playtime without credit purchases to get to what most people would call the baseline of one tritrans class.
Wyll, your argument seems to be boiling down to, 'don't like it, don't play or stop being careful with your money, peons'. That's not a great response to a valid critique.
There IS an issue with how things are currently priced. Apparently I -do- need to lecture you on the history of FTP and MUDs because your arguments are overlooking how most MUD communities run when it comes to the pay for perks structure. It's overlooking how pay for perks has evolved since it first started getting used.
Matt is a smart dude and I think he has done some really cool things in this space. I think there is room for improvement. I think this is a major one.
It does not make good sense for IRE to NOT have some kind of microtransaction offering. It DOES make good sense for them to scale their offerings to all kinds of incomes and situations. They have done pretty well on financial aid checks and the random people with excessive amounts of spare cash laying around, but they also have a pretty large contingent of people who don't have money raining down on them.
It's also fair to say that a gamble that requires a $300 investment to get a good return on and a definite pile of junk most of us don't want could use some reconsideration.
It's ALSO fair to suggest that a game struggling to retain and attract players really SHOULD care about the experiences of extremely dedicated players who can't afford to shell out that $300 (hello there, Oystir, I see you and your massive content creation output).
It's also fair to suggest that creating more microtransaction opportunities for people can help a bit with retention and attraction. I'd love to see some data on how the starter packs of lessons/credits and the monthly worked out overall.
TL;DR
The answer to 'there's an issue here' isn't STFU and quit playing if you don't like it.
Sorry mate, I'm not following your line of thinking.
1. Playing the credit market?
It cost gold to play the credit market? You don't say..
2. Playing the promo market?
It cost credits to play the promo market? You don't say..
Gold is available through bashing and questing, yes, where do you suppose you're going to get your start into generating income if you don't start there?
At this point, I'm not sure what you're getting at. You want to dismiss some avenues of income because they aren't part of the 'core' game? I don't understand this line of reasoning. Events, contests, etc, are great avenues of income too, because it adds content to the game and rewards players at the same time.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
E: The reason I don't consider events and contests part of the f2p process is 1) they are intermittent 2) they tend to be ~10c participation prizes and real rewards for 8-10 people per event, max. A real f2p nub is not going to be placing in the Great Hunt versus scepters, monks, bards, etc. The design contest for the clockwork thing is one of the first in ages, and it's going to reward 3 people. In the ToA and ToC, the credits tend to go to long-term players. It is not a model that will expand the game.
E2: I personally do quite fine on the f2p system, before you go there again. Just because it works for me doesn't mean I wouldn't rather see improvements that bring in players, the entire point of a f2p system.
I'm wrong because it takes money over time to achieve things easier in the game? I'm sorry(not really sorry), but what world are you living in? As in the game and as in real life, people pay for convenience. And those with more money are always going to have an upper hand.
You constantly telling people their opinion is wrong is laughable at this point, because this isn't the first thread you've done this in. My opinion is as valid as yours as a player. We were here to discuss wheel spins, but now it's derailed into F2P players complaining about costs and dumping on the company who is a commercial MUD for making money.
I'm truly boggled.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
You are continuously condescending, so I'm going to do the same. So
1 - No one said they shouldn't charge for perks
2 - No one said people with money shouldn't have an upper hand
3 - You admitted yourself you have no idea what it's like to be a f2p player
4 - I said your opinion was wrong, and you attack me?
5 - I will 'dump' on the company whenever I feel like it.
6 - I commented on the wheel and pricing with an addendum about f2p that you chose to respond to.
7 - You haven't addressed any of the actual numbers and examples I've put forward, so it's literally just your opinion versus a host of facts with 'haHAA u no know how 2 git gold' when, if anyone does, I do (hell, you know I've given you millions for credits, and that's just you).
So, I have no idea what *your* point is. You think the game is fine because you pay a lot? I dunno.
Never once did I say to 'stfu and quit playing if you don't like it' and that isn't even my sentiment in this thread. What I have a problem with is why you think your financial situation(because adulting is hard) is a matter or concern of anyone but your own. Promos are just that, promos, they are there to generate money for the company and game, money that partially goes back into building content and upkeep. You don't have to buy into them. If me telling you not to buy into promos that you admittedly can't afford is telling you not to play the game then I don't think we need to continue discussions because that makes absolutely no sense.
What do you want admin to do about that? They've addressed low entry buy ins already for the 'core' game.
Lesson packages - $20(that's like 2 trips to McDonalds)
Credit package - $50
Iron Elite - $25(tremendous value for what you get)
And yeah, @Oystir generates a huge amount of creativity, I have commented and complimented his creativity in the past. I wouldn't want a player like this to leave at all and I find it silly that you thought any of what I said boiled down to that.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
The response has been: Don't critique a for-profit company (because that's a thing), leave if you don't like it, learn 2 money, quietly enjoy FTP. None of which is a respond to the actual, valid critique.
I'm going to bow out of discussing it with you, Wyll. I appreciate where you are coming from, but you aren't really hearing what we are laying down.
I'd love to hear from folks who A) see this issue
Wyll: They need to eat.
Me: They are eating fine, in fact taking international vacations. I ain't worried about them putting food on the table.
Wyll: Wat u talking bout, Willis?
Me: Explains it.
Wyll: confused.gif
Really, dude? You know what I was responding to.
I'm going to leave the thread present, and not edit any of the posts at this point, but it definitely went way overboard.
We've read the feedback in this thread (what there was between the personal sniping). We'll discuss it.