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Some 1v1 Combat Ideas

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  • VivianneVivianne Member Posts: 24
    Iriaen said:
    Really, no one uses nightmare so it could be taken out, and maybe stupidity could be disabled in retardation.  This game could still benefit from things that a player can lose control over but I guess it's not going to happen.
    I use nightmare thank you very much in 1v1 fights. You have only been back like 2 weeks and stopped playing as diabolist your third day being back. You have no idea what you are talking about at all and are best to either shut up, kick back and relax and enjoy the show, or start trying to part of the show. Do not knock it till you try it. A few this and that does not prove anything. Ohh and randomness will ALWAYS exist here in Imperian. We are real people who make mistakes, miss seeing things, yadda yadda. It is so not linear and only that way if you look at that way ((Which seems to be the case with you. Your way, which makes 0 sense or the way things are now, which makes perfect sense.)) Sure, some things can use a bit of changing, but let the ones who have been sticking around handle that please. I enjoy what Imperian has to offer and I do not go around complaining and trolling about how I think things should be and you shouldn't either.
    image
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iriaen is the Vanmoriel of combat.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • KalonKalon Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    I think I might wish to suggest a clarification in terminology. I've re-read Iriaen's posts, and while his argument is nominally that combat is linear, I'm not sure that's what he's actually upset about.

    Rather, I think his problem may be that combat is computable: for any sufficiently well-defined combat state and skill set, there exists an optimal next action. However, (and this is the important part,) acquiring sufficiently well-defined combat state requires computer scripting.

    In other words: if you're a class that is not face-rollingly simple, you *need* to code things like an offensive aff tracker. Once you've coded that, there are pretty clear rules on what the best thing to do next is for any given kill method you possess. After you've automated your tracking, it's trivial to go the last step and attach your offensive choices to a doNextThingForKillX alias. In fact, with the verbosity of the new combo classes, writing an offensive alias system more complex than simple substitution is almost required.

    This is what makes combat feel 'linear' -- its two people spamming a small set of commands over and over and their scripts doing all the thinking, dying more often to a bug in their calculateNextThing FSMs than to a lack of awareness (because again, unless you're a computer, you simply can't parse the data and type the response fast enough to outpace curing).

    Now, whether we can actually do anything about that, or even whether we should, is up to all of you to discuss. I just am not sure if both sides are even having the same discussion.
  • VivianneVivianne Member Posts: 24
    Kalon said:
    I think I might wish to suggest a clarification in terminology. I've re-read Iriaen's posts, and while his argument is nominally that combat is linear, I'm not sure that's what he's actually upset about. Rather, I think his problem may be that combat is computable: for any sufficiently well-defined combat state and skill set, there exists an optimal next action. However, (and this is the important part,) acquiring sufficiently well-defined combat state requires computer scripting. In other words: if you're a class that is not face-rollingly simple, you *need* to code things like an offensive aff tracker. Once you've coded that, there are pretty clear rules on what the best thing to do next is for any given kill method you possess. After you've automated your tracking, it's trivial to go the last step and attach your offensive choices to a doNextThingForKillX alias. In fact, with the verbosity of the new combo classes, writing an offensive alias system more complex than simple substitution is almost required. This is what makes combat feel 'linear' -- its two people spamming a small set of commands over and over and their scripts doing all the thinking, dying more often to a bug in their calculateNextThing FSMs than to a lack of awareness (because again, unless you're a computer, you simply can't parse the data and type the response fast enough to outpace curing). Now, whether we can actually do anything about that, or even whether we should, is up to all of you to discuss. I just am not sure if both sides are even having the same discussion.
    I can agree with that, but at the same time....combat is not 100% automated and if it were you will just die a lot due to the oh **** I should have shielded, or tumbled. Some systems might do all that, but not the one I use. I have to know when to shield on my own. I have to remember to use skills like demon stain, nightmare/fiend, deathaura,gravehands, when belch is good to use, when bloodworms is good to use as most classes can just use the worms to their advantage as well. I do see what you mean though, the system part does the major haul, but we still can make plenty of mistakes that are not a bug or coding issue. 

    On top of that, without a proper affliction tracker, and or system, some of the classes cannot utilize their class skills to their maximum advantage or get close to that by just using aliases and the like. That I have learned.

    On topic to 1v1: Vivianne does duel if there is a reason for it. Heck sometimes she just duels for no reason other than to learn, but she does not stand up there at the spring looking for it monthly. She has other things she does as well. 1v1 is definitely still around.
    image
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The probem with Iriaen's ideas is that significant amounts of randomness being added to the fights basically just tends to make a class into RNGesus. Now you might lose because your calculateNextMove() had a loose screw, but back 'in the day' you used to lose because the enemy could just rely on Nightmare or Retardation and wait for the RNG to screw you because bad run of luck was not survivable. 

    Hell, back in Achaea, Tranq's first loss was to a Horkval(rough equivalent of our powerful statpack) Mage whose strategy was 

    1. Vibes
    2. Retardation
    3. Stab Enemy With Aconite Claymore Until They Die

    This was a legitimate strategy against which nothing could be done. If you had a bad run on stupidity, you died. It was also a perfectly legitimate strategy in Imperian for quite a long time. Ashel did the Akrabi Mage with weaponry, sting, and retardation with a great deal of success for a while here, and Pyrael before him did it with a scimitar.  It required no skill, no thought, no real planning. Just stand there and wait for the enemy to roll a 1. 

    This is the kind of thing Iriaen wants to bring back.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • KalonKalon Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    Yes, but the problem he points out and the solutions he suggests needn't be coupled. I'm wondering if this thread might be more constructive if we first decide whether or not we accept the problem as valid.

    If we determine that it is something we want to work on, I'd recommend that posts avoid the "[proposal] is bad because x" template, and instead favor "you know, I have [alternate proposal] that might be better because it avoids x". As a general rule, you should never shoot down an idea unless you either: a) have something better to replace it, or b) plan to debate the existence of the problem, in which case you should not even mention the efficacy of the solution.
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    I personally find things to be heading in the right direction, and the loss of Vodun, major stuns, retardation, aeon, instant unstoppable timebombs, worldwide instant kills, Pithakhan taking full sip, and so fourth ( the list really endless) betters the game because those things make fighting unfun. I'm honestly lost in the mindset Iriaen is trying to go for, but having to actually think at a sophisticated level with combat has a great deal more of a reward than spray and pray fight after fight.
    image
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ahkan said:

    If I wanted to gamble, I'd go to a casino or try to tell @Aleutia that she's pretty and I like her a lot. 
    How is this gambling?

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    She wants to push you down stairs just to hear you cry. (this doesn't mean she doesn't like you. She's weird)

    She let me see her collarbone. (This doesn't mean she doesn't hate me. She's weird)
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #collarbonetease
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aleutia, "Hey guys, parquetry or carpet? I think we should go and have a look at it."
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • VivianneVivianne Member Posts: 24
    Y'all go ahead and lead on...I'll stand over here and watch. :P
    image
  • IriaenIriaen Member Posts: 114 ✭✭
    edited March 2014
    Khizan said:

    The probem with Iriaen's ideas is that significant amounts of randomness being added to the fights basically just tends to make a class into RNGesus. Now you might lose because your calculateNextMove() had a loose screw, but back 'in the day' you used to lose because the enemy could just rely on Nightmare or Retardation and wait for the RNG to screw you because bad run of luck was not survivable. 

    Hell, back in Achaea, Tranq's first loss was to a Horkval(rough equivalent of our powerful statpack) Mage whose strategy was 

    1. Vibes
    2. Retardation
    3. Stab Enemy With Aconite Claymore Until They Die

    This was a legitimate strategy against which nothing could be done. If you had a bad run on stupidity, you died. It was also a perfectly legitimate strategy in Imperian for quite a long time. Ashel did the Akrabi Mage with weaponry, sting, and retardation with a great deal of success for a while here, and Pyrael before him did it with a scimitar.  It required no skill, no thought, no real planning. Just stand there and wait for the enemy to roll a 1. 

    This is the kind of thing Iriaen wants to bring back.

    I thought your warcry was the lamest someone could get, but now you're trying to drum up sympathy for Tranquility! Literally no one liked that guy.  He was even less popular than Ahkan.

    I'm just really wondering how we will kill people other than artifact damage once we have nerfed limb damage "kiting", taken out random afflictions because choosing between attacking and diagnosing is scary, and removed whatever other types of kills we have that don't depend upon artifacts.

    Even affliction kills effectively depend upon artifacts right now because in the current state of the game, you can't afford to use the fast statpack unless you have a bunch of defensive artifacts.  Which is just atrocious but was never a problem for Imperian in the past because damage was easily tanked and there were many ways to kill people that weren't reliant upon or significantly weakened by artifacts.

    The entire reason that Imperian was an active PvP game, despite the pay to win elements, was that sure you could buy yourself more damage and more tankiness, but that money wasn't actually going to change the outcome of most of the fights.  That certainly isn't true anymore.  This can hardly be called a real PvP game when the pay to win elements are this overbearing.
    Drill baby drill because luck is a skill.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Iriaen said:
    I'm just really wondering how we will kill people other than artifact damage once we have nerfed limb damage "kiting", taken out random afflictions because choosing between attacking and diagnosing is scary, and removed whatever other types of kills we have that don't depend upon artifacts.



    By... Learning how to play Imperian in the modern age? Are you really having that much trouble killing people?
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He did re-start with Diabolist...
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IriaenIriaen Member Posts: 114 ✭✭
    edited March 2014
    Please Gurn, I've been back a month now and haven't seen you on either side of deathsight in that entire time.  You never fought much back in the day either.  I have probably already PvP'd more in the past month than you have in the past year.

    Case in point, right now you're posting on the forums but Gurn, who is a Celidon city leader, isn't even online.  Wtf?

    Seriously, the fast statpack is like a bonus you tag onto your defensive artifacts right now.  Classes like Hunter don't even have a feasible non-damage related way to kill someone (all you have to do to block rupture is put blood poison at the top of your queue).  I know you all see the same problems that I do, otherwise you would actually be lighting up deathsight, but you are afraid of the solution.
    Drill baby drill because luck is a skill.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Iriaen said:
    Please Gurn, I've been back a month now and haven't seen you on either side of deathsight in that entire time.  You never fought much back in the day either.  I have probably already PvP'd more in the past month than you have in the past year.

    Case in point, right now you're posting on the forums but Gurn, who is a Celidon city leader, isn't even online.  Wtf?

    Seriously, the fast statpack is like a bonus you tag onto your defensive artifacts right now.  Classes like Hunter don't even have a feasible non-damage related way to kill someone (all you have to do to block rupture is put blood poison at the top of your queue).  I know you all see the same problems that I do, otherwise you would actually be lighting up deathsight, but you are afraid of the solution.


    You're absolutely right. That's because I haven't been logging onto Imperian because of work and school. Wow! Imagine that!



    (P.S) I can kill you with a rupture without a problem. 
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    Iriaen said:
    Khizan said:

    The probem with Iriaen's ideas is that significant amounts of randomness being added to the fights basically just tends to make a class into RNGesus. Now you might lose because your calculateNextMove() had a loose screw, but back 'in the day' you used to lose because the enemy could just rely on Nightmare or Retardation and wait for the RNG to screw you because bad run of luck was not survivable. 

    Hell, back in Achaea, Tranq's first loss was to a Horkval(rough equivalent of our powerful statpack) Mage whose strategy was 

    1. Vibes
    2. Retardation
    3. Stab Enemy With Aconite Claymore Until They Die

    This was a legitimate strategy against which nothing could be done. If you had a bad run on stupidity, you died. It was also a perfectly legitimate strategy in Imperian for quite a long time. Ashel did the Akrabi Mage with weaponry, sting, and retardation with a great deal of success for a while here, and Pyrael before him did it with a scimitar.  It required no skill, no thought, no real planning. Just stand there and wait for the enemy to roll a 1. 

    This is the kind of thing Iriaen wants to bring back.

    I thought your warcry was the lamest someone could get, but now you're trying to drum up sympathy for Tranquility! Literally no one liked that guy.  He was even less popular than Ahkan.

    I'm just really wondering how we will kill people other than artifact damage once we have nerfed limb damage "kiting", taken out random afflictions because choosing between attacking and diagnosing is scary, and removed whatever other types of kills we have that don't depend upon artifacts.

    Even affliction kills effectively depend upon artifacts right now because in the current state of the game, you can't afford to use the fast statpack unless you have a bunch of defensive artifacts.  Which is just atrocious but was never a problem for Imperian in the past because damage was easily tanked and there were many ways to kill people that weren't reliant upon or significantly weakened by artifacts.

    The entire reason that Imperian was an active PvP game, despite the pay to win elements, was that sure you could buy yourself more damage and more tankiness, but that money wasn't actually going to change the outcome of most of the fights.  That certainly isn't true anymore.  This can hardly be called a real PvP game when the pay to win elements are this overbearing.
    Dude. Affliction offenses are fine. Have you fought an Assassin/Renegade, a Flickdancer, an Outrider, a Wytch, or a Bard lately? Afflictions are a vehicle for your finisher. You drive your afflictions and establish a state where your other skills have their requirements satisfied, then you go for your class kill condition. For Assassin or Renegade, that is the Spatium insta. For Flickdancer or a Knight, that is a huge disembowel (disembowel scales at 5% extra dmg per phys aff), for an Outrider it is longslash or high bleed in to dryblood clots/bloodfreeze/dot ticks (Outrider is basically Affliction Warlock on Steriods), for Wytch you drop a tremendous choke on them that does about half their health (Iniar has done this to me before), and a Bard just does what Mathiaus did to Iluv (give tremendous We modified wedgies to you). To your point on Fast statpack: as an Outrider and a Flickdancer, I am capable of pushing my affliction offense easily as Dexterous or Athletic. I do not need Fast. Fast is a luxury. It is a decision you are willing to make about offense or defense. If you are confident you can go balls deep on an offense that stops people from destroying you, you go Fast.

    The pay to win element was still the same years ago. The problem is that back in the old days, nobody knew how to actually play the game. People who shelled out the 5,000 USD for all of the **** people have today were just as clueless as they were before they paid that money. You can hand a peasant Excalibur, but he's never going to be King Arthur unless he puts in the work to become King Arthur. People are just smarter now. People have learned how to play the game. The class design philosophy is based on being understandable, instead of obscure and arcane.

    Imperian's PvP has never been more active. You just do not like the type of PvP that is currently being offered. What you want is to go back to the Wild West. The Wild West was stupid, and that is why we aren't going back to it. The current meta of Imperian's PvP brings in tons of revenue, involves tons of people, and makes way more players happy than the old days, where people felt beholden to **** 'PKers' who defended them against others of their own kind.


    Iriaen said:
    Please Gurn, I've been back a month now and haven't seen you on either side of deathsight in that entire time.  You never fought much back in the day either.  I have probably already PvP'd more in the past month than you have in the past year.

    Case in point, right now you're posting on the forums but Gurn, who is a Celidon city leader, isn't even online.  Wtf?

    Seriously, the fast statpack is like a bonus you tag onto your defensive artifacts right now.  Classes like Hunter don't even have a feasible non-damage related way to kill someone (all you have to do to block rupture is put blood poison at the top of your queue).  I know you all see the same problems that I do, otherwise you would actually be lighting up deathsight, but you are afraid of the solution.
    The only way a Hunter can 'damage kill' is by pushing an affliction offense, read: setting up a brainmelt. Hunter is not a damage class. It is a class based on making basic decisions and reading people's curing even on the most basic levels. If you cannot push an affliction offense as a Hunter, you cannot win as a Hunter. Therefore, Hunter is a class that has a 'non-damage' way to win: the entire class supports an affliction offense, the Brainmelt just does psychic damage so that they can be punished if they don't set up a proper one. There is no difference between an instant kill and a properly set up Brainmelt.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • IriaenIriaen Member Posts: 114 ✭✭
    edited March 2014
    I do want to thank Kalon for his post.  It was pretty insightful.  He understands exactly what I have been trying to say about the linear nature of combat.  It lacks replayability and artifacts effect every layer of the game now that damage locks non-artifacted people out of fast statpack (and probably others, depending on a bunch of factors).

    I think that since I have been gone for so long, I know what's missing.  A lot of people don't.  Here Vivianne, someone I see on deathsight like once every 3 days, thinks that she can trash talk me.  Maybe she wasn't around when people were doing PvP regularly, like it was League of Legends or Counterstrike, so she doesn't realize how weird it is that someone who PvP's three times a week is defending the current combat system.
    Drill baby drill because luck is a skill.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Iriaen said:
    I do want to thank Kalon for his post.  It was pretty insightful.  He understands exactly what I have been trying to say about the linear nature of combat.  It lacks replayability and artifacts effect every layer of the game now that damage locks non-artifacted people out of fast statpack (and probably others, depending on a bunch of factors).

    I think that since I have been gone for so long, I know what's missing.  A lot of people don't.  Here Vivianne, someone I see on deathsight like once every 3 days, thinks that she can trash talk me.  Maybe she wasn't around when people were doing PvP regularly, like it was League of Legends or Counterstrike, so she doesn't realize how weird it is that someone who PvP's three times a week is defending the current combat system.



    BRO IF YOU DONT' GOT AT LEATS 3:1 KILLZ RATIO YOU CANT TALK BRO
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iriaen said:
    I do want to thank Kalon for his post.  It was pretty insightful.  He understands exactly what I have been trying to say about the linear nature of combat.  It lacks replayability and artifacts effect every layer of the game now that damage locks non-artifacted people out of fast statpack (and probably others, depending on a bunch of factors).

    I think that since I have been gone for so long, I know what's missing.  A lot of people don't.  Here Vivianne, someone I see on deathsight like once every 3 days, thinks that she can trash talk me.  Maybe she wasn't around when people were doing PvP regularly, like it was League of Legends or Counterstrike, so she doesn't realize how weird it is that someone who PvP's three times a week is defending the current combat system.
    I am willing to bet all 917 credits on Sarrius that Vivianne is a statistically more useful player than you during any and all combat scenarios.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • IriaenIriaen Member Posts: 114 ✭✭
    Well, if people want a game where they PvP 2-4 times a week, then they're well on their way to getting it.  I'm assuming that some time 3-4 months ago, someone with a lower buy in killed Khizan or Juran with limb damage, and now they won't rest until it gets taken out because it's too random (dangerous).  The thing is, doing that won't actually make those guys PvP more often.  It will make the kind of person who cares about things like K/D play less.  Imperian has been catering to the wrong people in my absence.

    @Sarrius, it's funny to me that you said "statistically" more useful.  It's all about those statistics these days.  But really, you booted a woman for planning to contest you.  That's quite possibly the biggest definition of male weakness possible.  She hadn't even contested you yet, man.  And here you are still bringing her up in random threads and ranting about it.  People like you are the fighters of Imperian now.
    Drill baby drill because luck is a skill.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Iriaen said:
      That's quite possibly the biggest definition of male weakness possible.


    Dude. You are not the pinnacle of masculinity. Stop while you're behind.
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    "Imperian has been catering to the wrong people in my absence." 

    Stop ruining my mental image of Iriaen as a cool dude. :(
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IriaenIriaen Member Posts: 114 ✭✭
    Because really, why is Vivianne "statistically" more useful than Iriaen in a team fight? Is Vivianne more useful because she can tank more damage? Because she can deal more damage? Based upon how much money she spent on the game?

    Look at yourself.  LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE BECOME.
    Drill baby drill because luck is a skill.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Iriaen said:
    Because really, why is Vivianne "statistically" more useful than Iriaen in a team fight? Is Vivianne more useful because she can tank more damage? Because she can deal more damage? Based upon how much money she spent on the game?

    Look at yourself.  LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE BECOME.


    She's more of a team player. She looks at her own mistakes instead of blaming the game. She works with other people, can take criticism, and is a fun person to be around.


    I mean, I don't really know her, but I'm going to guess that whatever she is, she does all of the above better than you do.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    Tbh, Vivianne has more legitimate Malignist kills than Iriaen did. Deadeyes asthma/ciguatoxin + nightmare wasn't exactly hard. Plus, Vivianne shows up to fights she may lose. So that's like +2 for Vivi.

    A solid class that's really resistant to artifacts is defiler, but you said that skillset was crap in one of your other misguided rants after playing it 0 times.

    There's a lot of re-playability built into Imperian because of the playerbase. Shard falls always have different numbers of people showing up in different classes making different decisions. At the last 100 or so shardfalls (+100 on you, @Iriaen) maybe 6-10 were the same because of no-shows. Honestly, there's -less- re-playability in 1v1 do to the rock-paper-scissors-plasma balancing act has going for it. And usually, you'll have two 8 man teams duking it out and then a scrapper team of 4-5 people from the third circle shows up and the shenanigans begin.

    Compared to 2006 (GLORY DAYS, HOORAH) there's a ton of re-playability and non-linearity as these tricks don't work anymore:
    deadeyes ciguatoxin/asthma + nightmare ad nauseum
    embed retardation, touch web ad nauseum
    reflex shatter w/ prismatic ad nauseum
    maul/grove lightning ad nauseum

    Tbh, @Iriaen, I don't see much non-linear thinking in your resume :(

    image
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