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Shardfall and PVP activity
Tyden
Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
I've now been away from my retirement of MKO for a little over a month now. I didn't retire because i wanted to, but because I was forced into it. Imperian was the mud I chose to call my new home. I'd say within my rights, that I was considered one of the best pk players to play MKO. It's concepts were not polished, and the war system was flawed, but it had a lot of character.
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I just have to ask, where is the character of PVP growth within the confides of Imperian? I just don't get behind Shardfalls as the main source of PVP. The activity alone speaks to me of one that a non-comm would enjoy in their off time to help booster their city to use shards for a greater purpose. Not the focal point of all that is currently PVP.
I understand there are concepts like the "champion system" or "monoliths", but they are very restrictive type of PK. Obelisks are meant to be according to the helpfile "Obelisks and outposts represent the focal point of the Imperian's conflict system. " yet the system actually deters away from PK entirely.
I understand that most if not all of these issues have came up in the past, but Shardfall PVP to me is not something I can keep rallying behind blindly. Mixed into the fact that the landscape of Imperian seems to be everyone is friends compiled on top of the decision to release classes previously gated behind certain orgs for all to enjoy. Perhaps it is because I play in Celidon, but from what I have seen it seems that the landscape of the game seems to be no animosity at all. Where is the city vs city or org vs org hate? Even in the most dead Mud games I have played, there is still that tension or hatred of one another, but I just don't get that feeling here(though again I am not sure if that is because of my placement in the game or not).
I think it's safe to question or at least inquire over the direction PvP is headed. I am also able to understand that this isn't all on the administration to "fix", and the players can actively help the situation at hand as well. I appreciate the feedback, and ask for people to keep civil.
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I just have to ask, where is the character of PVP growth within the confides of Imperian? I just don't get behind Shardfalls as the main source of PVP. The activity alone speaks to me of one that a non-comm would enjoy in their off time to help booster their city to use shards for a greater purpose. Not the focal point of all that is currently PVP.
I understand there are concepts like the "champion system" or "monoliths", but they are very restrictive type of PK. Obelisks are meant to be according to the helpfile "Obelisks and outposts represent the focal point of the Imperian's conflict system. " yet the system actually deters away from PK entirely.
I understand that most if not all of these issues have came up in the past, but Shardfall PVP to me is not something I can keep rallying behind blindly. Mixed into the fact that the landscape of Imperian seems to be everyone is friends compiled on top of the decision to release classes previously gated behind certain orgs for all to enjoy. Perhaps it is because I play in Celidon, but from what I have seen it seems that the landscape of the game seems to be no animosity at all. Where is the city vs city or org vs org hate? Even in the most dead Mud games I have played, there is still that tension or hatred of one another, but I just don't get that feeling here(though again I am not sure if that is because of my placement in the game or not).
I think it's safe to question or at least inquire over the direction PvP is headed. I am also able to understand that this isn't all on the administration to "fix", and the players can actively help the situation at hand as well. I appreciate the feedback, and ask for people to keep civil.
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Comments
In other words, I am with Tyden on this. The overall feeling is that everybody wants to be happy cuddly friends with each other. And also, no its not just your placement in Celidon Tyden, because I see the same from the demonick circle.
Another big problem is that, say, at a shardfall, for example. Most of the players (save a few) seem to think of a shardfall as "get in, get the shards, leave" which is technically right, but from a PK perspective, couldn't be more wrong. Unless you really really really need shards (which ironically, tends to be terrible for PK), it's a lot more fun to just fight over them, and uh, maybe harvest a few. The shards (in this example) are more like a ticket to dinner, than the dinner itself. But not everyone sees it that way, and that's the problem - and I do consider that a problem, not just "different ways of playing the game" because shardfalls are emphatically a PK system.
I feel like our best hope to invigorate PK is actually between AM and Magick, because we don't hate each other nearly so much (I think some people hate Septus, but that's okay, poor Septus). The problem is, Magick only has a few fighters, even now (but damn, are we stacked, and we have an almost perfect variety of profs when we're all on), and the ones it does have are the sort of people who, well, we know a thing or two, but we're not naturally good coders and we don't really have a firm grasp on actual kill strategies from beginning to end. This is why I am sitting around with tellsoff or working logged off (otherwise I end up chattering with people) right now, to get a little bit more polished. I am still willing to jump in with stuff if you want to grab me, though (unless I have something so torn apart I can't).
Definitely plenty of animosity to be had, but it's low key or depends on your behavior, I guess? It's still better than it was a couple months ago, since Demogick is dead (for now, dunnnn-dun-dunnnnn). There will always be shardfall scavengers and teams deciding to surrender the fight cause morale/numbers/RL/whatever, too.
Shardfall in particular end up a very weak impetus to participate in PVP to me now because I need a token artifact - and not a cheap one - to get any real longer-lasting benefit from them.
Holding aspect monoliths you can basically opt of with aspect perks, and I feel this system really harshly punishes new aspects versus longer-standing ones. Someone who throws a chunk of gold at things can have all of the benefits - with none of the drawbacks. And when I can just save up and toss money at the problem why would I stick my neck out?
For all people complain about "people hiding in guards or houses" I don't think there's a lot of respect given to the fact that sometimes some of us (hi!) would prefer participate in PK events like shardfalls because they are essentially clearly-signposted "this is the PK time" things and not have to deal with it constantly 24/7. Especially someone like me who is looking at doing this and then probably having to recode tracts of her system when something doesn't work.
I do think they should reconsider the token artifact pouches, yeah. It's easy for me to afford... but I agree it creates a barrier to entry where one definitely doesn't need to be - especially since shards are a way that less tanky people can try to buff themselves a bit. If nothing else, maybe allow people to store a reasonable, usable number of shards without owning a pouch... something.
I think they're going to change the monos up a bit. I have mixed feelings about how some of that is going to (probably) pan out the more I think about it. I was originally totally on board with all of it at first, but I am starting to rethink it, possibly.
So the current plan as I understand it is to limit us to fewer purchased monos, and have the 5th power only work if you are personally holding a mono. That sounds really good, but it occurs to me that it's going to incentivize people to NOT attack people who hold the same aspect, even if they're from a different circle, and I don't think that's a good thing. Also, the 5th power needs to be roughly equal in importance for all aspects, and Aryana, for example has regen super low on the tree right now. BUT, if you make the great buffs (regen, absorb, modulate) 5th tier powers, I think you're going to see very artied, very top tier people being almost the sole beneficiaries of those buffs (and yes, probably holding all of the best special shards as well). Probably not great. We do need something other than "lol, I bought all my monos", but we might need to think that through a bit more.
Different environments - definitely. Really, there's no reason to overcome the inertia the exists right now. I have much more to lose in terms of my time and level of enjoyment if Anette gets involved in open PK than I could ever, ever hope to gain, and I doubt even if I got her up to the level I had my Aetolia character where I can be a one woman holy war it would ever be as fulfilling as it was on Aetolia, for a variety of reasons. (Autocuring means everyone has a system so there's not much pride in beating someone else's system being a big one for me as a hobbyist programmer)
Right now the prevailing problem I personally have is more one of environment than something mechanical, I think. Because the high end people with all those artifacts are so starved for PK, they jump on any open PK they can get. Moment I touched a monolith? Jumped. Moment I walk into an area that a shardfall is occuring in? Jumped. I get it, they want the PK, and I don't blame them either, but I can't compete with someone who has spent probably upwards of 10k on this game and I have no desire to try.
I actually want to give a bit of a hat tip to @Septus for being the one person I've been able to approach with questions that's accessible to Anette ICly whose been happy to answer them. We could use more of that, at least in AM. Which is probably a result of the various migrations more than anything.
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edit -
If I had any suggestion towards encouraging a better PK environment to change the prevailing attitude to one respectful of different combatants' desired level of involvement rather than "well you did this thing so we're going to jump you now, deal with it." While the latter may be technically true, it isn't going to endear anyone to wanting to spar with anyone. My best matches in Achaea or Aetolia were with close friends - because we competed over who could be the best. There was a camaraderie there that frankly, I don't feel here.
edit 2 - Why reinvent the wheel? We have shard rift artifacts now, that increase rift capacity. Make a baseline capacity in the rift, and turn the pouches into things like the riftshards that let you have more. I feel this would be a reasonable compromise.
Personally, I don't see myself getting 5 tokens worth of value out of any participation in shardfalls, and as such, I choose not to participate. I am certain I am not the only one.
For shardfalls, I think a 3-man team is a solid start - sometimes just two people, if say, there is just one person in the area to begin with, and you know for a fact that person can whip your **** all over the place, no question. But... to me, there also has to be someplace for that to go, so hopefully, that guy has a buddy he can call in for round two, and so forth. Adds are not all bad, because they can maximize participation, but you (usually) don't want to just nuke people either - not because you're such a nice guy, but because that tends to make people pack it in and go home (or, if they have the people, they'll nuke you back even harder). But yeah, you are definitely going to get jumped (possibly by a good sized team) if you show up at a shardfall. In fact, I've pottered about shardfalls alone specifically so I could get jumped, probably die, and then call in some friends. It's a great way to start a fight sometimes.
All of that said, I think we have an incredible amount of control over when we do and don't get involved in PK (even too much in some cases, see "not being allowed to collect bounties when people are chatting with the Blood God"), but for those two scenarios, I think that is what works best. I do think the above touches on something really important. I've had people riding me HARD (and I mean some serious verbal badgering and abuse) to go back over and over to fights my side was losing very, very badly, and part of why it was so hard, was because I knew that even the guy "encouraging" me looked down his nose at me and was laughing at me inwardly, so there was no real trust or friendship. I felt I was being used (and I absolutely was). It's super important to have mentors that let you progress at your own pace, and don't judge you for it, and don't try to push you into the deep part of the ocean just because some top tier PK-ers are bored.
I think part of the reason here is there is no incentive (outside of downright illegal things that you can issue someone for) not to be a **** to someone if you have a valid PK reason, so of course people are going to. On somewheres like Aetolia that has a death penalty (or at least did when I played) you didn't do this kind of thing because if you did they'd jump you right back, usually with like ten of their closest acquaintances. Say what you will about ganking people, it served as something that prevented the worse excesses of it. Because we don't have a death penalty, I've been just told to "deal with it" so many times, despite it having completely disrupted what I was trying to do and costing me the time going to and crawling back up from Dis. So sure, I'll "just deal with it" - by opting out of the thing entirely.
[inline edit - I used to think using Starburst/redemption/soulcage was kind of lame in Aetolia, because it robbed the person of a kill basically. This again goes to the sort of comaraderie. I have zero qualms about using every starburst/redemption/combust I can on Imperian cause I give no care if someone "loses" a kill that was in Impy, and indeed it's been the thing that has kept these ambushes from being intrusive into my enjoyment of the game, frankly speaking. I really wish I didn't feel this way.]
All of this is frankly all on the playerbase that participate on PVP and this is something we have the power to change - if we want to. I guess the question is if the community at large wants to.
For the shardfalls, there shouldn't be too many of them that happen inside prime hunting areas (I don't think?) - that said, I'd like to see them moved to a few smallish areas (definitely under 100 rooms - places like Cinua, Barnack) that are hard to run around in (and also not along main travel routes). My motivation is more to make it hard to slink around a shardfall (and also make it relatively easy for people to predict/check up on shard fall areas), but nevertheless it would fix your problem too.
As regards PVP at large - I do think with things as they are now and a lot of people sitting and talking about how we can get PVP going in a meaningful way again there's a lot of opprotunity for those interested to come together and make it what we'd prefer to have it, really.
For the moment, I guess I'd say I'd personally be ecstatic to use Gyannis and similar areas (although Gyannis specifically might have a problem with lots of duplicate room names, which is something I'd like to avoid for shardfalls), but I think some people are going to view "oh, nope, can't have shardfalls there EVER, someone might be doing a quest" as further ultra-sanitization (and they kind of have a point).
People don't complain about surprises if they're fun. And it being fun or not with PVP comes down almost entirely to the tone and the untold "gentlemen's agreements" that form the implicit code of honour that people abide by. I generally take people complaining about being jumped (and my own complaints about being jumped) as an indication there's a problem in that regard.
edit, to respond to @kiskan 's point -
I wouldn't say there's a mechanical sanitization of PVP per se. There are plenty of ways to put up the Open PK batsignal, so many of them that I've unadvertently ended up beaming it a couple times without meaning to, and people are more than willing to take you up on it if you make that offer.
I'd say what is happening here (and "feels" the same) is that because it can be so unpleasant sometimes (you recount being badgered and bullied into fighting for instance) people don't really feel that incentivized to continue. I actually think the mechanical approach Imperian tries here is right for the most part - you want to minimize the negatives of participation after all. They just need stronger positive incentives to do so. For instance, if those shard fall semi-artifact-things were of a great enough value, people would be willing to put up with open PK for them. Right now several seem very situational, and the problem this introduces is you have a *constant* negative (being open to PK) for a very *situational* benefit. So it undermines the approach of doing things like removing the death penalty.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying "open PK is bad", what I'm saying is "the reasons to make yourself open PK do not justify dealing with it to me."
I mostly won't make myself open PK either, by the way. Very few people are up for being open PK all day every day, and I was never pushed into open PK. The pushing was usually more "you guys are in WAY over your head to begin with, but I want you and your team to rush back to that shardfall 3-4 more times before you've even properly redeffed and regrouped".
I'll sometimes hold a mono, and I have no problem doing that any time one might be useful, or just feel like trying to start a fight, but it's not like I constantly walk around holding mono. Not even close. The only other time I'm ever really open PK is when I am bountied. I don't hold Champion, either.
And I mean, I don't hold onto those special shard things either. I don't think they were ever really intended for the general population (even the general PK population). Even if they had absolutely amazing benefits, unless they were an actual win button (which would be so bad), I think they're always going to end up in a few hands. I think they're meant to drive conflict at the upper tier, but for whatever reason, even in Achaea, they mostly seem to be held by a literal handful of guys. But I think the intent is "give the guys who already love fighting an especially tasty stick of gum to fight over". The more awesome you make those shards actually, I think the more of a problem they become, for that reason.
Like, inter-circle violence in a shardfall area would increase the chances of special shards appearing, or buffing the special shards, or increase the number of shards at the next fall, etc.
it has been a really long time since I last felt the thrill of a call-to-arms upon login...
ring: Iniar!
ring: #roomnum
ring: #roomnum
ring: #roomnum
ring: def up!
ring: .
ring: .
ring: .
ring: #roomnum
ring: #roomnum
ring: #roomnum
-insert deathsight messages-
-finish def up-
Iniar: sooooo, where we fightin'?
Reflecting on it, I feel that that sense of urgency and excitement was due to a few reasons, ranked in terms of how my perception of their relevance:
- Imperian combat was new to me at the time
- I was much less artifacted than I am now, so getting PK kills in shardfalls were a good part of building PK experience
- I had a visceral hate for Septus and AM because they kept beating us; I wanted to win (i-l-u-2 bb)
- I felt the compulsion to help the people on my side, because I liked them
- Shardfalls mattered, because investing in the shard skill-tree would yield benefits, both non-combat and combat related
- I liked killing people
When I inspect those reasons now, all the reasons are no longer valid. Somewhere along the line, I had lost my appetite for combat; there was no primary reason, nor triggering event.
I have played this game for about 3 years now, which is relatively short compared to some of the other players before they retired. I've never been through a cycle where a mechanic has been exhausted and the game lies in a state of quiescence, and it was quite frustrating for me. I had spent all this time and money learning about this game so I could carry a connection to the same people no matter where my employer(s) sent me.
Backtracking, I feel now that although Imperian combat has aged on me a little, it still is, in my opinion, a lot of fun.
I also feel that, while I no longer hate Septus & co with the same intensity that I used to, I no longer have someone or some people that I would consider 'opposition'. This highlights the indispensable role of combat leaders, people who are willing and capable enough to lead fights, and willing enough to be hated for it (hopefully by the other side(s) only). There's a fine line between being a nuisance, a disruptive force, a fight-trigger and then someone who people loathe and snub/reject/kick out.
I no longer feel the compulsion to help my fellow city-mates. Why? To place this in context, I used to care enough to write, package and service combat systems for Demonic. I did this for about three to six months before I threw a tantrum and stopped. That is another discussion in itself. So why do I no longer feel the compulsion to help city-mates? I suspect it's because the city has about as much relevance to me as 'thanks for the shard-skills, laterzzzzzzz'.
I no longer feel much satisfaction in killing people. Class mastery is also a magnitude less relevant when placed in the context of prolonged imbalanced design.
Finally, the one thing in that list that the admin -can- control directly: shardfall relevance.
I don't have any good ideas. All I will say is that when winning shardfalls had -direct- impact on access to skillsets for the city and circle, they were a whole lot more interesting. Once Antimagick had completed their tree, and Demonic's attempts petered out, it became irrelevant. Much like how Juran sees Obelisks as fights that used to matter, I agree that there should be an attempt to recreate things-that-matter-to-groups. Does that mean renewing and undoing the efforts of those who have invested time and energy into the existing system? Possibly. Does it mean designing a system that will have periodic renewals and draw from a pool of variable rewards to keep it fresh? Possibly. Does it mean designing rewards that are staggered so that no one ends up feeling like a 100% loser? Probably. Does it mean designing a system that limits the competitive period to generate that intense pressure to win, then lapses into a sustained benefit phase, and subsequently goes through a rebirth to allow other people to take another shot? Probably.
Will it come to fruition?
Will it come to fruition in time?
Who knows.
Damn near all of the big PvPers I know can point to a single definitive event that made them get into PvP in a serious way, and that event is usually another PvPer doing something that makes them go "Okay, that's it, I've had it with that guy's crap, I'm gonna kick his ****."
Andelas and Zero trashtalking all Druids as terrible after exterminating forests in Achaea. Pythona hunting Aetolian vampires to find a cure for the condition. Getting robbed. Jagara trash talking after a raid. Somebody made things personal, and a non-PvPer went "Okay, f*** that guy" and turned into a PvPer.
Imperian has basically removed all areas of the game where that kind of thing can happen, and so that has stopped happening. If you want to get more people into PvP you need things to happen that will get people emotionally invested in it, and this means that people are going to have to be able to raid cities and such. Shardfalls are great for learning HOW to fight and for getting non-coms out on the field, but they're not gonna get non-PvPers emotionally invested in the idea of turning into a PvPer.
I had the old, first round Nexus client at the time, and was one of the few who actually made a system on it to use. I remember when I finished it, and actually started using it effectively, pvp became this bright new world to explore and conquer.
It wasn't until I switch to using mudlet that I became immersed into coding intricately and finding creative ways to kill people.
The accomplishment of building a system and having it actually work kept me around, and keeps me coming back for more.
usually the people who want to be badass don't want to make a million condition system like i do
hunter used to be throw axe dir cigua/oxalis (send ents dir) then shoot incendiary
mage used to be check resists target, staffcast target elemental type
druid used to be maul/lightning
renegade was also trickier but you could isabella metrazol it
bard was throw sketch kantae
compare that to
hunter needs to learn how to do triggers (very complex)
druid needs to track earth, air, overwhelm, trueassess health and mana etc
mage needs crystal management, 4 attunement management, plus aff tracking
runeguard needs aff track plus nairat deny track (hard) plus tablet rotation management and guessing on haemophilia for slash shred vs lacerate lacerate
renegade needs aff tracking plus shadowplant (hard) and switching prios based on hypnosis or salve stacking or smoke stacking against fitness
bard anomaly.
sure mathaius and i stayed, but we lost the aakrins, the therians, the gurns, the isabellas etc
1) Learn to play,
2) Make proper highlights,
3) Create aliases that aren't obnoxious to remember/type.
Tada you now have the tools to manual.
PS: Automation (in a game like this) is prone to just as many screw ups as a player is, just different kinds.
Sorry @Septus, this is too relevant to not post:
Septus tells you, "There's def a case of "man this guy might get me"."
Septus tells you, "No auto person has made me sweat, basically."
Yes, it's Septus the walking artifact, but the point remains.
PPS: Can we stop saying "aff tracking" is mandatory? It really isn't. The game isn't fast enough to necessitate it to the degree that people keep trying to say it is. If you can't make a decision in 2-2.5 seconds based on what you saw them eat while off balance, on what to afflict with, you're probably not half as amazing as you think you are. Especially with just how many afflictions have 3rd person cures now.