just sayin', telling people they should start manualling at this stage of the game instead of just downloading a script is less likely to retain people in my opinion. sure berserker and diabolist have been made less complex, but i think they're probably less viable in 1v1 or 2v2 than one of the more complex professions used to the fullest (whether that is auto or manual).
Every class is perfectly viable in 1v1 and 2v2. The two you mentioned especially. Naturally every profession has another which is a 'counter' to them; such is the nature of PvP in virtually every single game that has 'class-based' pvp. (or hero based, in case of MOBAs and such). Said counter will require more effort than 'normal' in order to win, which is where you'll find good players become separated from average ones.
Personally, from my experience over the past 10-odd years in IRE games, giving someone a script that is the equivalent of an autowin, is MUCH less likely to retain them, by virtue of said script not really teaching them much, so they can't really work out where they go wrong when they lose to someone better than them. Engaging with people retains them much more effectively than saying "Here take this script and you win lol."
I would definitely tell people to manual. If they were keen to learn, I would then help them out with said learning. Automating minor things for convenience is great, hell I do it all the time for things like marks (if no mark -> mark; if mark has flared/faded -> replace, for example). Automating all your combat? Not so much. While you CAN do it, it's not as perfect as people like to try and laud it as. Nor is it necessary. Like I said, scripts are as imperfect as human decisions are, just in different ways.
maybe you are right about the "autowin" aspect of it but i feel like for the majority playerbase and the non-coms, it's better to give them something where they can immediately jack in, join in on a shardfall, get some kills and see if they like the rush of combat and then from there let them decide if they want to tinker on their own with what they downloaded or decide to try the manual route. i don't really advertise or try to convince people to download my system, they usually ask around first because they know what they are looking for and then they approach me.
and maybe you and septus weren't around to experience kyrock, that put fear into people.
edit: when i say aff track, really it could be system or in your head, the aff track is still difficult whichever route you take.
All valid points. Probably though, if you're wanting to help people get a feel for combat, it would be better to give them a 'starter kit' and not a full blown offence that does everything for them.
Entity/loyals management,
Shield/Rebound razing/tracking,
Maybe some priority swapping stuff,
Basic toxin picking (or even something that lets them choose what they wanna do easily).
Stuff like that. Rather than overloading them by giving them everything all at once; after they get the hang of using that, then see how they feel.
All valid points. Probably though, if you're wanting to help people get a feel for combat, it would be better to give them a 'starter kit' and not a full blown offence that does everything for them.
Entity/loyals management,
Shield/Rebound razing/tracking,
Maybe some priority swapping stuff,
Basic toxin picking (or even something that lets them choose what they wanna do easily).
Stuff like that. Rather than overloading them by giving them everything all at once; after they get the hang of using that, then see how they feel.
This is pretty much how I feel. I personally have to automate to a degree(I spam an alias) because I read stupidly slow, but I also like not being handed a system. When I first started PvPing the advice I got was literally, "Reave reave strychnine aconite soulstorm, till you build something better" That combined with help from my circle getting the lines for rebounding/discussing how that all works, got me started. I'm no pro at Imperian PvP and still really new, but it was this kind of thing that helped me get hooked. Just feel bad I can't be around for more than 1 or 2 shardfalls, and a lot of the time it ends up being me alone either waiting or harvesting 70 shards and sighing about not fighting. Hence why I'm excited about the new raiding system!
Speaking of myself. Just because you buy a system or get gifted a system when you play Imperian doesn't mean you don't learn your class or other classes.
In my case I didn't want to take the time to mold another system in a game where I was forced into. So I bought a system and dig through it all the time along with adding to it as I see fit.
As a person who has designed systems for other games I have played, it isn't for everyone and while it can be rewarding it also can be a thorn in your side that ends up most the time in the player leaving than staying.
Though I am not really sure manual vs automation is the issue that is plaguing Imperian Pvp.
i think the side of the debate one rests on depends on who your mentor was
Maybe for someone new to IRE/MUDs as a whole. My mentor when I came to Imperian was someone who was pretty notorious for automating a crap load. Same with both Aetolia and Achaea
Note: Not saying automation is bad; I'm disputing people saying it's needed to pvp, or to pvp against 'high tier' people. It's not. Nor is it needed to beat others who automate.
i think dicene is on point with his post with the exception of idea that the classes than can be manualed are the ones that are imbalanced. it is the professions (like hunter) that demand automation from average players without strong manual options are the ones that need looking into. Mage aff route is very complex but it does have a great damage route that players can get into without lots of scripting (if they cover the profession's weaknesses, untankiness and high mana cost)
"I dabble with blah completely manual, and do just fine at the blah.
You don't NEED systems to do stuff for you, you just need the experience and motivation to make it work".
I am like HOW NICE FOR YOU I STILL CAN'T EVER REMEMBER TO COMMIT HEALTH MID-FIGHT. I also might roll my eyes, because these people just don't get, or don't WANT to get, that they are basically the Michael Phelps of text warrioring, and that it isn't that way for everyone. Or maybe they just enjoy flagellating people. I feel like that guy with foodstamps or some ****. "God, if only she'd WORK harder at text warrioring she could get out of the projects". It makes me kind of cranky.
I think automation can both help and hurt midbies? Trash tier? more than anyone. Basically a lot of the people you are all talking about. It can help because I probably really need to automate, or at the very, very least streamline a lot of defensive stuff (I auto-commit, for example), and certainly stuff like razing.
On the other hand, let's say you're fighting a team fight against lots of well-coordinated automation. Perfect system that auto-follows target on exit, even in a HUGE teamfight (I can do it in a reasonably small fight)? Perfect tracking? Blah blah Septus is going to go no problem I got this. I am going to go "that's a nice bot. It is better at this game than I am". And some people just really enjoy building bots and are pretty good at it. A few, very few, can beat a good bot. Anyway, all of that is (probably) not so bad in and of itself. Depending mostly on whether there is a decent mix of people on both sides so that every fight isn't a total rout.
EDIT: quick note. Some people love huge fights. Truly huge fights are crap for most people (even if they're "enjoying" them because "I think we won") because there is no way most of us have any gd clue wtf is going on in a fight that size. Imperian fights tend to be a nearly perfect size a lot of the time, and this is a blessing. If we ever got a lot bigger and had HUGE fights (often), I'd consider that a pitfall, not a plus, and would actually want it mechanically altered to create smaller fights again.
I think the worst case scenario is where you start to get really good offensive systems being passed around to the general population. All of a sudden, I might just be the shittiest person on ANY team if I am not using said system (basically depending on how comprehensive the system is). I can tell you right now, my team almost certainly wishes I were using Iluv's system. I HAVE Iluv's system. I get away (sort of) with not using it because I am artied to the teeth, and I don't quite do EVERYTHING wrong. I can also get away with it because every Carnifex in the game isn't downloading CATS and I am a random newb and god if I actually try to make my OWN crap, it really will look like, well, CRAP. Yet.
After messing around with Hunter the other day, I think triggers (the skill, not coding 'trigger') are only as complex as you want to make them really. They look harder than they really are.
I think the worst case scenario is where you start to get really good offensive systems being passed around to the general population. All of a sudden, I might just be the shittiest person on ANY team if I am not using said system (basically depending on how comprehensive the system is). I can tell you right now, my team almost certainly wishes I were using Iluv's system. I HAVE Iluv's system. I get away (sort of) with not using it because I am artied to the teeth, and I don't quite do EVERYTHING wrong. I can also get away with it because every Carnifex in the game isn't downloading CATS and I am a random newb and god if I actually try to make my OWN crap, it really will look like, well, CRAP. Yet.
if you want help going about how to do team tracking and what you should be coding for runeguard, shoot me a tell (and I'll get back to you when I'm not mindless). we were making progress with how tables work and how you use them for afflictions before, hopefully we can pick up where we left off even though some time has passed.
I am sort of just slowly digging through stuff alone right now (with tells off, mostly, because I am a chatterbox otherwise, and I get absolutely nothing done otherwise). I actually have a lot of more "basic" housekeeping to do. For example, just ONE of the things I always say I need to do, but have not done nearly enough of, is gag the snot out of stuff that spams me (carefully, of course, but I think it is critical for me to gag things). BUT, thank you thank you and I will take you up on this. I DO want to use the information in your system.
I feel like I'm missing a joke here, buuuut... No it's probably not very complex. But it -works-. Sure my alias could probably be more efficient but eh. I type fast/accurately enough for it to not be any sort of bother.
khaim = claw with hemotoxin, implant trigger that afflicts impatience+masochism when they cure asthma, as an example of how that works.
Rest of my stuff is even simpler. I use 3 letter prefixes for every affliction Hunter is capable of, and type them out like that. numimp = claw numbness (ciguatoxin) + bat impatience aststa = claw asthma (mercury) + bat instability etc etc etc.
Admittedly I need to continue work on my highlights; I did stop playing for over a year though so I need to pick up where I left off.
eta before sleep: I do also have affliction tracking as part of my system.. But personally for me, I've found I do better when not using it, due to how annoying it is to get backtracking working efficiently.
Automation is a tool - one that can both be used effectively and can make things worse for people than they need to be. Not everyone is going to make their own tools. That's fine. What's most important, as @Septus asserted, is they're doing what makes the game enjoyable for themselves.
Oh I think it can be a problem. It's just not a problem for most of the people in this thread. I'm also not sure there's a hell of a lot that can be done about it, but there are some big big downsides to automation run amok - for a very large group of players who are not anywhere near the top.
Our guys are discussing sort of "where did all the derp a derps go" and I am saying "well, we don't have this problem (mostly) YET, but just so you can have more things to worry about, here's another thing that definitely tends to hollow out the derp a derp crowd".
Aetolia combat was incredibly BORING, even though I really liked some of the players. And yet, it also had an incredibly high minimum bar - set by its numerous excellent out of the box systems. If I was ultra ultra ultra committed to becoming an Aetolian fighter in my own right, I could try to claw my way up to and past that bar (no guarantee I'd get there), but the minimum bar is now sky high in the eyes of most derp a derps. I can reach that bar easily - by using the systems (and be incredibly unsatisfied) or, work really really really hard for a very long time to be as good as the 18 year old newbie that just installed system blah.
And you can wave that aside, and there would have been a time when I'd probably say "eh, nbd, this is my personal goal" but in practice, believe me, that is going to be very, very discouraging for most people. The minimum bar will now just be objectively WAY higher than it would be otherwise, and it's going to be really really hard to keep yourself convinced that you're not on a fool's errand. THAT is why automation is a tool, for sure, and even a hobby in its own right, but can absolutely also be a problem, but again, not really sure what you'd even do about it.
Oh I think it can be a problem. It's just not a problem for most of the people in this thread. I'm also not sure there's a hell of a lot that can be done about it, but there are some big big downsides to automation run amok - for a very large group of players who are not anywhere near the top.
Our guys are discussing sort of "where did all the derp a derps go" and I am saying "well, we don't have this problem (mostly) YET, but just so you can have more things to worry about, here's another thing that definitely tends to hollow out the derp a derp crowd".
I meant more problems of the "well the system just got me killed cause it kept stabbing things when needed to disengage" variety which uh, may or may not happen to me a lot.
Aetolia combat was incredibly BORING, even though I really liked some of the players. And yet, it also had an incredibly high minimum bar - set by its numerous excellent out of the box systems. If I was ultra ultra ultra committed to becoming an Aetolian fighter in my own right, I could try to claw my way up to and past that bar (no guarantee I'd get there), but the minimum bar is now sky high in the eyes of most derp a derps. I can reach that bar easily - by using the systems (and be incredibly unsatisfied) or, work really really really hard for a very long time to be as good as the 18 year old newbie that just installed system blah.
I actually really enjoyed manualling Aet combat back when I could! It was kind of a badge of pride to me that I managed to hold my own doing this, despite the Acinos et al of the world with very complex systems. But with my arthritis now, I couldn't be competitive with manual combat even if I wanted to try now. So I automate. I don't see a problem with it, but I can understand people who find enjoyment in manualling. It's also fine if you're not one of those people!
And you can wave that aside, and there would have been a time when I'd probably say "eh, nbd, this is my personal goal" but in practice, believe me, that is going to be very, very discouraging for most people. The minimum bar will now just be objectively WAY higher than it would be otherwise, and it's going to be really really hard to keep yourself convinced that you're not on a fool's errand. THAT is why automation is a tool, for sure, and even a hobby in its own right, but can absolutely also be a problem, but again, not really sure what you'd even do about it.
Well, when I have some trust in my own system, I intend to release it freely, for the like 2 people who still use TinyFugue.
Semi-relatedly, since it seems we're both in the process of making our own systems, we should spar sometime!
I have like zero 1 v. 1 game, but I will occasionally bite the bullet... Pretty much everything I do or think about is in service of team fights though, just because team fighting is so much easier than 1 v. 1.
I have like zero 1 v. 1 game, but I will occasionally bite the bullet... Pretty much everything I do or think about is in service of team fights though, just because team fighting is so much easier than 1 v. 1.
Well, I don't bite! The consumable vampire teeth are too neat to waste. I enjoy 1v1 just because all I need is a single buddy/frenemy/enemy/sparring partner to kick it off. I never mind unless my system is too much in pieces at the moment to put up a good fight, so do drop a line if you'd ever fancy. I could use someone to bounce stuff off to get 3p messages anyways
I am basically an amateur champion Test Dummy, so really just about anytime you want, we can meet and you can hit me. I don't think I'd stand around for hours getting beat on just now (because I do normally give my attention to the attacker in case they want certain things done or not done, and really, just to make a good target), but 45 minutes to an hour when I am around is no problem.
In an attempt to get this back on track, I think the bigger problem with pvp involvement right now comes down to a combination of not really any real personal reason to get involved, and the prevailing attitude some people had until now that frankly put off a lot of people, myself included, that we should just put up with the poor behaviour because we did The PK Things. The latter is something we can change ourselves. The former is probably coming if we do the latter regardless, but will also be helped with system revisions such as the raiding thing @Jeremy's brainstorming.
I'm a bit late to this party and am loath to agree with Zorantiz when he's kind of bashing the game, but I got directed here after making pretty much the same complaints yesterday.
Obviously I'm not much of a combatant or anything, but classes definitely feel harder and more complex now. Once upon a time I used to feel like I could competently use a handful of different professions even if I wasn't great at it. Nowadays I hardly feel like I know what I'm doing without a set of instructions and even then I stuff it up pretty easily. This could partially be because I'm not keen on change and learning these new things, but it does really feel that things used to be simpler. The result being that I hardly use my class skills, when I do I have to search to find it first rather than knowing it inherently, and I don't even dip my toe into combat anymore.
I also really miss the flavour, old Mage still remains my absolute favourite class, there was something so fun about creating flames in your hands and calling down hailstorms. Certain nameless people are even trying to exploit that in getting me to play games that still have it...
Anyway, just my two cents.
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Comments
Personally, from my experience over the past 10-odd years in IRE games, giving someone a script that is the equivalent of an autowin, is MUCH less likely to retain them, by virtue of said script not really teaching them much, so they can't really work out where they go wrong when they lose to someone better than them. Engaging with people retains them much more effectively than saying "Here take this script and you win lol."
I would definitely tell people to manual. If they were keen to learn, I would then help them out with said learning. Automating minor things for convenience is great, hell I do it all the time for things like marks (if no mark -> mark; if mark has flared/faded -> replace, for example). Automating all your combat? Not so much. While you CAN do it, it's not as perfect as people like to try and laud it as. Nor is it necessary. Like I said, scripts are as imperfect as human decisions are, just in different ways.
and maybe you and septus weren't around to experience kyrock, that put fear into people.
edit: when i say aff track, really it could be system or in your head, the aff track is still difficult whichever route you take.
- Entity/loyals management,
- Shield/Rebound razing/tracking,
- Maybe some priority swapping stuff,
- Basic toxin picking (or even something that lets them choose what they wanna do easily).
Stuff like that. Rather than overloading them by giving them everything all at once; after they get the hang of using that, then see how they feel.In my case I didn't want to take the time to mold another system in a game where I was forced into. So I bought a system and dig through it all the time along with adding to it as I see fit.
As a person who has designed systems for other games I have played, it isn't for everyone and while it can be rewarding it also can be a thorn in your side that ends up most the time in the player leaving than staying.
Though I am not really sure manual vs automation is the issue that is plaguing Imperian Pvp.
Note: Not saying automation is bad; I'm disputing people saying it's needed to pvp, or to pvp against 'high tier' people. It's not. Nor is it needed to beat others who automate.
That said, not at all interested in the automation debate. Imo, people should do what they enjoy, because that's why they're here. I know I will!
"I dabble with blah completely manual, and do just fine at the blah.
You don't NEED systems to do stuff for you, you just need the experience and motivation to make it work".
I am like HOW NICE FOR YOU I STILL CAN'T EVER REMEMBER TO COMMIT HEALTH MID-FIGHT. I also might roll my eyes, because these people just don't get, or don't WANT to get, that they are basically the Michael Phelps of text warrioring, and that it isn't that way for everyone. Or maybe they just enjoy flagellating people. I feel like that guy with foodstamps or some ****. "God, if only she'd WORK harder at text warrioring she could get out of the projects". It makes me kind of cranky.
I think automation can both help and hurt midbies? Trash tier? more than anyone. Basically a lot of the people you are all talking about. It can help because I probably really need to automate, or at the very, very least streamline a lot of defensive stuff (I auto-commit, for example), and certainly stuff like razing.
On the other hand, let's say you're fighting a team fight against lots of well-coordinated automation. Perfect system that auto-follows target on exit, even in a HUGE teamfight (I can do it in a reasonably small fight)? Perfect tracking? Blah blah Septus is going to go no problem I got this. I am going to go "that's a nice bot. It is better at this game than I am". And some people just really enjoy building bots and are pretty good at it. A few, very few, can beat a good bot. Anyway, all of that is (probably) not so bad in and of itself. Depending mostly on whether there is a decent mix of people on both sides so that every fight isn't a total rout.
EDIT: quick note. Some people love huge fights. Truly huge fights are crap for most people (even if they're "enjoying" them because "I think we won") because there is no way most of us have any gd clue wtf is going on in a fight that size. Imperian fights tend to be a nearly perfect size a lot of the time, and this is a blessing. If we ever got a lot bigger and had HUGE fights (often), I'd consider that a pitfall, not a plus, and would actually want it mechanically altered to create smaller fights again.
I think the worst case scenario is where you start to get really good offensive systems being passed around to the general population. All of a sudden, I might just be the shittiest person on ANY team if I am not using said system (basically depending on how comprehensive the system is). I can tell you right now, my team almost certainly wishes I were using Iluv's system. I HAVE Iluv's system. I get away (sort of) with not using it because I am artied to the teeth, and I don't quite do EVERYTHING wrong. I can also get away with it because every Carnifex in the game isn't downloading CATS and I am a random newb and god if I actually try to make my OWN crap, it really will look like, well, CRAP. Yet.
After messing around with Hunter the other day, I think triggers (the skill, not coding 'trigger') are only as complex as you want to make them really. They look harder than they really are.
khaim = claw with hemotoxin, implant trigger that afflicts impatience+masochism when they cure asthma, as an example of how that works.
Rest of my stuff is even simpler. I use 3 letter prefixes for every affliction Hunter is capable of, and type them out like that. numimp = claw numbness (ciguatoxin) + bat impatience
aststa = claw asthma (mercury) + bat instability
etc etc etc.
Admittedly I need to continue work on my highlights; I did stop playing for over a year though so I need to pick up where I left off.
eta before sleep: I do also have affliction tracking as part of my system.. But personally for me, I've found I do better when not using it, due to how annoying it is to get backtracking working efficiently.
Automation is a tool - one that can both be used effectively and can make things worse for people than they need to be. Not everyone is going to make their own tools. That's fine. What's most important, as @Septus asserted, is they're doing what makes the game enjoyable for themselves.
Our guys are discussing sort of "where did all the derp a derps go" and I am saying "well, we don't have this problem (mostly) YET, but just so you can have more things to worry about, here's another thing that definitely tends to hollow out the derp a derp crowd".
Aetolia combat was incredibly BORING, even though I really liked some of the players. And yet, it also had an incredibly high minimum bar - set by its numerous excellent out of the box systems. If I was ultra ultra ultra committed to becoming an Aetolian fighter in my own right, I could try to claw my way up to and past that bar (no guarantee I'd get there), but the minimum bar is now sky high in the eyes of most derp a derps. I can reach that bar easily - by using the systems (and be incredibly unsatisfied) or, work really really really hard for a very long time to be as good as the 18 year old newbie that just installed system blah.
And you can wave that aside, and there would have been a time when I'd probably say "eh, nbd, this is my personal goal" but in practice, believe me, that is going to be very, very discouraging for most people. The minimum bar will now just be objectively WAY higher than it would be otherwise, and it's going to be really really hard to keep yourself convinced that you're not on a fool's errand. THAT is why automation is a tool, for sure, and even a hobby in its own right, but can absolutely also be a problem, but again, not really sure what you'd even do about it.
Semi-relatedly, since it seems we're both in the process of making our own systems, we should spar sometime!
Obviously I'm not much of a combatant or anything, but classes definitely feel harder and more complex now. Once upon a time I used to feel like I could competently use a handful of different professions even if I wasn't great at it. Nowadays I hardly feel like I know what I'm doing without a set of instructions and even then I stuff it up pretty easily. This could partially be because I'm not keen on change and learning these new things, but it does really feel that things used to be simpler. The result being that I hardly use my class skills, when I do I have to search to find it first rather than knowing it inherently, and I don't even dip my toe into combat anymore.
I also really miss the flavour, old Mage still remains my absolute favourite class, there was something so fun about creating flames in your hands and calling down hailstorms. Certain nameless people are even trying to exploit that in getting me to play games that still have it...
Anyway, just my two cents.
** And don't try them now just see if they're really broken. **.
** Or credit conversion. Try not to do anything much right now. **.
** Don't panic, normal service will be restored as soon as possible. For now, enjoy the wonders of conversation. **.
*** We will be rebooting in about 60 seconds ***.
** Don't panic. Just...stay close to your rosaries **.
** Monetary offers for Salvation accepted. **.