They can provide a ton of afflictions in a quick pace at a very low equilibrium recovery. Stupidity alone trips up and in groups this becomes an issue which leads to that silly dps the class has.
This was my point.....mixed with sketches as well provide a lot of afflictions in quick succession.
Edit: I think bard needs a small tweak, but mainly this was just an example as previously stated.
Stupidity affliction only really trips you up if you're relying too much on a system for your offense and it chokes.
Like Naruj said, Bard isn't a scary affliction class. It can't even come close to a lock and the best hinder it has is stupidity. Yes, it has a (relatively) high affliction rate, but that is necessary because of the nature of the class. If you lower the affliction rate, you're going to have to give bard a way better pool of afflictions and the ability to hamper curing. That wouldn't be fun for anyone.
Just swap stupidity out of voice for heroism and leave stupidity on sketch so they keep the hinder but don't get scaling from an affliction off of a sketch
While bard's afflictions are not scary - it really combines both solid damage, with solid affliction rate. This makes them one of the premier classes in both group and 1v1 combat. As such, their damage approaches that of damage classes and their affliction rate approaches those of affliction classes. Combine that with the fact that they are one of the best hunting classes, and you have abilities approaching that of shaman ... (a poor man's shaman)
I second what Ryc suggests. Swap stupidity for heroism in voice, please!
Also, Bard isn't one of the best hunting classes. It's got reasonable damage/attack rates, but it's got terrible durability and struggles badly in places like Skegdald, continually having to dodge out to self heal, even with plenty of arties to boost tankiness. As for group combat - Bard isn't great in groups. It's not even that good in groups, really. It lacks team utility like block, AoE hold, etc, it's got a slow buildup to do damage even in teams because of the necessary gating on bard offense, etc.
And we've already explained why the affliction rate isn't enough to judge the class by - the control over the affs and which it has available matter more past a certain point.
As for what needs nerfs... there are a number of classes that should get nerfed before Bard is looked at. Defiler is top of the list, followed by Shaman, right now.
Don't underestimate the subtle difference that taking a sketch toxin off the voice table will make to ramp up speed.
Right now, a Bard can sketch link stupidity with TA nuarinyu/innyo to get impatience on their second attack using resonance without having anything on the target but Yoth. With any other affliction, this does not work.
Class nerfs should be very specific. This is one that works without breaking anything.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
What ever happened to report #525, anyhow? From all I can find, it looks like the solution was somehow changed to removing chills from Nuarinyu... Which, based on the way Bard afflictions work is actually a buff where a nerf was requested!
Bard is not a scary affliction class, they are a class that stacks otherwise low priority afflictions into damage.
That makes it a scary affliction class. If your metric of being scary is (seemingly) doing high priority afflictions a lot, then DK would then be a scary affliction class since it can give every lock aff. Even impatience is semi on-demand with how easy tendoncut is to slap on. What makes it actually scary isn't exactly what afflictions it gives, it's what it does with those afflictions, and to what degree. Bard turns those "low priority afflictions" into very high amounts of damage, very quickly.
As for not taking affliction pressure into account, kill-death ratio kind of indicates that, and it's difficult to quantify afflictions
Belated response to this, because I only just actually read it... KD ratio doesn't mean jack, when Imperian's primarily focused around a group meta. Especially when stuff like Tome, Reflections and Removal exists... If you were dedicated enough, and avoided high-threat fights, you could hit those ratios ratios on Predator, hell if you were really dedicated you could do it on Engineer. KD ratios are irrelevant, all it shows is who sniped last hits more often.
What ever happened to report #525, anyhow? From all I can find, it looks like the solution was somehow changed to removing chills from Nuarinyu... Which, based on the way Bard afflictions work is actually a buff where a nerf was requested!
We will have Nuarinyu give ignorance. We will replace stupidity on sketches to give ignorance as well. This allows for some changes without also increasing the depth of their affliction queue
Imagine being self-centered that you write a classlead to try stop your 'allies' ditching you- or stop enemies working together against you- when you treat them poorly and pretty much drive them to not wanting to interact with you.
Maybe... Not doing that would be a good step, instead of trying to get things mechanically coded so that you can continue treating everyone else like ****, to the point they feel they have to work with other circles to do anything. Really not hard to understand why people would rather work with 'enemies' than/against you.
Some people make it really hard to want to even bother continue playing.
Even when we try, we are almost all incapable of separating the concepts of good or fair from what is good for us. Feeling frustrated is fine, especially if someone isn't even trying to be fair. But let's keep this corner a place where we discuss the ideas and why those ideas are good and bad and look past any character flaws (real or perceived) of the people posting them.
Even when we try, we are almost all incapable of separating the concepts of good or fair from what is good for us. Feeling frustrated is fine, especially if someone isn't even trying to be fair. But let's keep this corner a place where we discuss the ideas and why those ideas are good and bad and look past any character flaws (real or perceived) of the people posting them.
To be fair, I did point out why they're bad. Using the logic of "but da lore!" isn't very good, when the entire premise is about one's ability to be shitty towards others, with (essentially) zero consequence due to how the game currently is right now. The RP card is just a copout.
Personally I'd rather some event that does away with affinity entirely, to let people foster their own alliances. Most of the lore was built around a time when divine existed, anyway... But I know that's not going to happen.
It's not about why "they're" bad though. I don't care how bad a person is, I care about how bad their ideas are (or good). My point is if you think the mechanic being proposed is stupid, say the mechanic is stupid. Don't bring in what someone's motivation may be in proposing that mechanic. People with bad motivations may have good ideas and the worst ideas are often born out of the best intentions. I understand the frustration, and I'm certainly not asking anyone to like someone else. But I am asking that we focus on the mechanic here, not the motivation.
The "mechanic" in play though isn't a mechanic in this case @Dec. It's about alliances and what people decide/interact with one another within the game. Decisions that were made by people in position to do so, and honestly that is how it should remain. The want for a "Mechanical" side to alliances would only create larger headaches such as..... beacons
Edit:
basically a mechanic shouldn't be put in when people are able to make decisions and those people being attacked(by said alliance) can also do things within the game that shouldn't be walled behind a mechanic if they "choose" not to.
But I am asking that we focus on the mechanic here, not the motivation.
Sure; I've said it plenty before. Affinity is awful, because it stems from a time long-gone where Divine teachings presided over the city states. Nowadays all it really does is stifle inter-circle interaction (that isn't to do with enemying) and limit RP even further than it already is.
I know you said not to mention motivations or anything, but I will say this... If affinity is to get changed, it shouldn't be in a way that benefits the aformentioned attitude (let's be real, a lot of classleads get made purely out of spite--this is directed at nobody in particular, just stating the obvious). Imperian could sorely do with lessening the effects (or removing, either works) of horribly outdated mechanics that don't really belong in Imperian. Lore is an irrelevant point, when the lore reasons behind affinity don't really exist anymore.
eta my own thoughts: I personally don't think there's any reason for keeping it. From what I've gleaned, the only real argument is there being powerful profession combinations... There's powerful inter-circle profession combinations, certainly. There's equally powerful intra-circle profession combinations as well, though. Classleads are used to balance outliers; it shouldn't be a factor really.
We will have Nuarinyu give ignorance. We will replace stupidity on sketches to give ignorance as well. This allows for some changes without also increasing the depth of their affliction queue
Ah! Unfortunately, according to the announce post associated with that round of classleads (3769) and the current AB files for those skills, the only changes applied to bard were something about Artistry Globes and removing freezing from Nuarinyu - the latter increasing the chance that the random affliction given by Resonance-empowered Nuarinyu will be an herb affliction from 77% to 87.5%. Should I file this as a BUG, or is it just an oversight from the previous round? There were a lot of larger changes and many of those reports are not yet marked as "complete," after all.
The sulfonal nerf is both justified and necessary.
No reason a strong duellist class should also get good, easy damage in team situations. Even I don't use it - it's ridiculous, at about 300 raw poison damage every 2 seconds with sulfonal up.
There is very little change to 1v1, because the only non-combo afflictions that you can give come via hypnosis and the cobra.
However in team fights, Sulfonal is far more important than it was intended to be. The relapsing effect from other people's toxins is balanced only if Sulfonal is 'stuck', and that only happens if you remove the no-relapsing after healing effect.
The alternative is a much worse nerf to Sulfonal, which will 100% happen if this is not the idea that they pursue.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
It's 'easy' in execution, but it's counterable unless you get ample nightshade masking, they have bad priorities, or they let it sit undiagnosed. You're also going to be living for 10s+ under focus fire before you start taking dps higher than just walking in with most straight-up damage classes at a similar arti level. Until then, it's predator-level DPS. The only reason it is so effective v Magick is they're all 6-700 hp with maxed resists and ample tanking ability. Can't imagine why it's on your list.
You also want to kill the ability in duels anyway with the way your lead will work out. Sulf/tri is a finisher unless they are derps. If curing it removes the 8s of setup to get the sulfonal and relapse chain proc'd, there is no reason to ever try for it over annihilate. If they're locked, it'd be faster than sulf. If lock isn't reliable, then keeping sulfonal on with proper priorities isn't reliable even if you stack nightshade and instill.
The logic is bad, and the solutions are bad. Might as well suggest that curing haemophilia reduces your bleed level.
I wouldn't even care if you used it. I'll probably die before the second relapse if it's a team and it gets that far, and I'd be locked in a 1v1 (or you'd be doing some unnecessary nightshade stack to instill it) before it killed me. Would be nice if the impetus got people to actually play for the first time in a few years before making bad suggestions, anyhow.
E: Lol, sure, okay. You've got your finger on the pulse of the game by blasting CC.
E: "Boohoo, I lived in teams so long that I ate trioxin with sulfonal on for 15 seconds. Obviously broken, nerf now."
I don't fight, I'm pretty neutral. Nothing is 'on my list' because my login character is magick on a technicality.
Your Sulfonal argument only works if there is nothing higher priority meant to be cured - your proposed solution is Sophie's choice. They either let numbness progress and asthma stack, or get those afflictions again when Sulfonal relapses them. It is a badly balanced team combat affliction, and the proposed change has no impact on 1v1 combat.
It needs to change. The ONLY two changes that I support to nerf Assassin/Renegade are changes to Instill and Sulfonal - everything else is justified.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
It absolutely has a 1v1 impact in any case where the target isn't locked and dead anyway.
If you're relapsing numbness or asthma via punctures in teams, you're not doing dps. That scourge is off by the second puncture. It'd be an utter waste.
Having to make choices is part of the game.
Your solutions basically relegate it to a window of 2-3 per side to have the masking afflictions and getting to the relapses before they just die from damage, and even then it'd probably retire require a detour to instill to have a chance (further delaying the dps). By that point, it'd be ungodly easier, faster, and more reliable to just feed a brainmelt or enlighten.
And I'd love the instill change I heard floating around. Shadowplant2, omnom.
I don't fight, I'm pretty neutral. Nothing is 'on my list' because my login character is magick on a technicality.
Your Sulfonal argument only works if there is nothing higher priority meant to be cured - your proposed solution is Sophie's choice. They either let numbness progress and asthma stack, or get those afflictions again when Sulfonal relapses them. It is a badly balanced team combat affliction, and the proposed change has no impact on 1v1 combat.
It needs to change. The ONLY two changes that I support to nerf Assassin/Renegade are changes to Instill and Sulfonal - everything else is justified.
Isn't that the issue with bard that you dismissed? You said "Bard is not a scary affliction class, they are a class that stacks otherwise low priority afflictions into damage." You are describing assassins damage in the same way as a problem but dismissing a similar problem with bard.
I'd disagree with the statement of bards not being a scary aff class, the affs you listed are quite good hinder, anti cure and extra damage.
The difference is that a bard will be focusing these useful affs while building to their high damage attack. An assassin will be focusing their damage while not really building to much else.
The assassins damage you could more compare to Shamans high damage output with curse, healthleech and choke.
I do find it odd that Shamans as an aff class can output a higher damage output than a lot of "damage" classes despite as Galt puts it shamans being a superb duellist class. With amazing group utility even if you took away their damage.
I'd be fine with shaman damage in teams being nerfed, though it's not like sulfonal - it's much easier to counter and deal with. There's a reason I rarely go that route.
I have very little opinion about Shaman. It's overpowered, needs to be nerfed, but post-Jinx I don't have a lot of direction on what the player base would find acceptable. I am pushing for the Inhibit change as a way to counter their momentum control, which I hope will be sufficient.
Bard is reasonably balanced in 1v1, and strong in teams. It is strong because the afflictions that you need to cure to be competitive are not afflictions that the bard cares about - you cure lethargy but you leave hypersomnia. Every affliction on the bard affliction list is additional damage when they switch to their kill condition.
But bard is -not- a scary affliction class - they do nothing on their own to augment a lock offense, and if stupidity is removed will do nothing for a hinder offense. But their afflictions are important, not healing them will get you killed. That is similar, but not the same to Sulfonal. Relapsing is an affliction that needs healing priority, but contributes to an offense even after healed. The nerf proposed would put it in line with those Bard afflictions that you cite.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
Comments
This was my point.....mixed with sketches as well provide a lot of afflictions in quick succession.
Edit: I think bard needs a small tweak, but mainly this was just an example as previously stated.
(may vanish for periods of time)
Like Naruj said, Bard isn't a scary affliction class. It can't even come close to a lock and the best hinder it has is stupidity. Yes, it has a (relatively) high affliction rate, but that is necessary because of the nature of the class. If you lower the affliction rate, you're going to have to give bard a way better pool of afflictions and the ability to hamper curing. That wouldn't be fun for anyone.
Also, Bard isn't one of the best hunting classes. It's got reasonable damage/attack rates, but it's got terrible durability and struggles badly in places like Skegdald, continually having to dodge out to self heal, even with plenty of arties to boost tankiness. As for group combat - Bard isn't great in groups. It's not even that good in groups, really. It lacks team utility like block, AoE hold, etc, it's got a slow buildup to do damage even in teams because of the necessary gating on bard offense, etc.
And we've already explained why the affliction rate isn't enough to judge the class by - the control over the affs and which it has available matter more past a certain point.
As for what needs nerfs... there are a number of classes that should get nerfed before Bard is looked at. Defiler is top of the list, followed by Shaman, right now.
Right now, a Bard can sketch link stupidity with TA nuarinyu/innyo to get impatience on their second attack using resonance without having anything on the target but Yoth. With any other affliction, this does not work.
Class nerfs should be very specific. This is one that works without breaking anything.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
We will have Nuarinyu give ignorance. We will replace stupidity on sketches to give ignorance as well. This allows for some changes without also increasing the depth of their affliction queue
Like a daydream.. or a fever
No reason a strong duellist class should also get good, easy damage in team situations. Even I don't use it - it's ridiculous, at about 300 raw poison damage every 2 seconds with sulfonal up.
However in team fights, Sulfonal is far more important than it was intended to be. The relapsing effect from other people's toxins is balanced only if Sulfonal is 'stuck', and that only happens if you remove the no-relapsing after healing effect.
The alternative is a much worse nerf to Sulfonal, which will 100% happen if this is not the idea that they pursue.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
You also want to kill the ability in duels anyway with the way your lead will work out. Sulf/tri is a finisher unless they are derps. If curing it removes the 8s of setup to get the sulfonal and relapse chain proc'd, there is no reason to ever try for it over annihilate. If they're locked, it'd be faster than sulf. If lock isn't reliable, then keeping sulfonal on with proper priorities isn't reliable even if you stack nightshade and instill.
The logic is bad, and the solutions are bad. Might as well suggest that curing haemophilia reduces your bleed level.
I wouldn't even care if you used it. I'll probably die before the second relapse if it's a team and it gets that far, and I'd be locked in a 1v1 (or you'd be doing some unnecessary nightshade stack to instill it) before it killed me. Would be nice if the impetus got people to actually play for the first time in a few years before making bad suggestions, anyhow.
E: Lol, sure, okay. You've got your finger on the pulse of the game by blasting CC.
E: "Boohoo, I lived in teams so long that I ate trioxin with sulfonal on for 15 seconds. Obviously broken, nerf now."
Your Sulfonal argument only works if there is nothing higher priority meant to be cured - your proposed solution is Sophie's choice. They either let numbness progress and asthma stack, or get those afflictions again when Sulfonal relapses them. It is a badly balanced team combat affliction, and the proposed change has no impact on 1v1 combat.
It needs to change. The ONLY two changes that I support to nerf Assassin/Renegade are changes to Instill and Sulfonal - everything else is justified.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
If you're relapsing numbness or asthma via punctures in teams, you're not doing dps. That scourge is off by the second puncture. It'd be an utter waste.
Having to make choices is part of the game.
Your solutions basically relegate it to a window of 2-3 per side to have the masking afflictions and getting to the relapses before they just die from damage, and even then it'd probably retire require a detour to instill to have a chance (further delaying the dps). By that point, it'd be ungodly easier, faster, and more reliable to just feed a brainmelt or enlighten.
And I'd love the instill change I heard floating around. Shadowplant2, omnom.
Isn't that the issue with bard that you dismissed? You said "Bard is not a scary affliction class, they are a class that stacks otherwise low priority afflictions into damage." You are describing assassins damage in the same way as a problem but dismissing a similar problem with bard.
I'd disagree with the statement of bards not being a scary aff class, the affs you listed are quite good hinder, anti cure and extra damage.
The difference is that a bard will be focusing these useful affs while building to their high damage attack. An assassin will be focusing their damage while not really building to much else.
The assassins damage you could more compare to Shamans high damage output with curse, healthleech and choke.
I do find it odd that Shamans as an aff class can output a higher damage output than a lot of "damage" classes despite as Galt puts it shamans being a superb duellist class. With amazing group utility even if you took away their damage.
Bard is reasonably balanced in 1v1, and strong in teams. It is strong because the afflictions that you need to cure to be competitive are not afflictions that the bard cares about - you cure lethargy but you leave hypersomnia. Every affliction on the bard affliction list is additional damage when they switch to their kill condition.
But bard is -not- a scary affliction class - they do nothing on their own to augment a lock offense, and if stupidity is removed will do nothing for a hinder offense. But their afflictions are important, not healing them will get you killed. That is similar, but not the same to Sulfonal. Relapsing is an affliction that needs healing priority, but contributes to an offense even after healed. The nerf proposed would put it in line with those Bard afflictions that you cite.
Like a daydream.. or a fever