It's healthy to have talks about classes that seem underpowered and what is considered overpowered. Discussions are good, but unless you're talking a Maxed out Summoner @Galt I am not sure I'd classify them as "fine". I haven't seen a maxed out Summoner since Zenigra, but this was before the changes to Summoner a very long time ago when him and I used to square off.
I don't think the answer ever is to base classes off artifacts though, so if that is the case I think you should come off the Summoner is okay ordeal. The game is moving towards free to play and getting people who perhaps don't have $$$ to throw at all the artifacts a chance to be apart of the game.
From what I've seen @Mereis is a perfect example of where a mid-tier Summoner would be and I believe her and @Eochaid tested without any defensive buffs and she could not secure a kill in what seems to be a reasonable ttk.
If your only counter argument is "You don't play this class", then why are you even posting?
By that logic, people should only ever get to comment on classes they're actively playing, which would be a terrible, terrible idea.
Wasn't my argument. My argument was that literally everyone says you're wrong. Clearly you know better, so prove it.
You need to step off that high horse of thinking that it's automatically the person who's bad, when the class isn't having the supposed success you think it should have. If you think it is the person, then prove it and people will change their stance. Healthy discussion requires both sides to have evidence of their claims; at present yours has none beyond hearsay.
We tested summoner and like we said. It takes a summoner 45 seconds on a target with no defs, no artifacts and not fighting back or moving to do enough sustained damage to kill them.
With defensive artifacts and common defs I can stand and tank a summoner indefinatly in terms of damage.
Summoners do not have a viable solo damage kill route.
This isnt about good or bad its simply a case of what a summoner can and can not do. Being good or bad does not play into hitting a stationary dummy target.
From what I've seen @Mereis is a perfect example of where a mid-tier Summoner would be and I believe her and @Eochaid tested without any defensive buffs and she could not secure a kill in what seems to be a reasonable ttk.
Just to clarify she was able to get a kill within 45 seconds of build when I removed all artifacts, reloged to remove all defs, she kept her artifacts on and was able to free cast on me uninterupted for 45 seconds.
That's what I meant by reasonable TTK. Considering you weren't doing anything. She attacked you without you having anything and didn't secure a kill in what would seem to be a reasonable time. Sorry if I wasn't 100% clear there.
Summoner was strong previously because the optimal route was literally to write a single alias to flash spam target and effectively bash them to death. I am completely against reverting that change. I am not against giving summoner some buffs. As a note, the damage route not being a viable solo strategy does not mean there isn't a viable solo strategy (I'm not claiming there is one, just that people should be aware of that)
I want to point out that there is, indeed, a hybrid affliction-damage route involving sticking Aeon and piling on the relapses. But if you manage to stick those afflictions, you might as well go for the Enlighten
currently tentatively active (may vanish for periods of time)
I want to point out that there is, indeed, a hybrid affliction-damage route involving sticking Aeon and piling on the relapses. But if you manage to stick those afflictions, you might as well go for the Enlighten
Sticking aeon also requires sticking asthma, which you're simply not going to do as a Summoner.
As a note, the damage route not being a viable solo strategy does not mean there isn't a viable solo strategy (I'm not claiming there is one, just that people should be aware of that)
Enlighten is viable until they make 1 or 2 swaps in their curing. Then you can basically tank that indefinitely, as well. Or just shield the second they ashcloud, that'll drop your affs down out of enlighten range.
I want to point out that there is, indeed, a hybrid affliction-damage route involving sticking Aeon and piling on the relapses. But if you manage to stick those afflictions, you might as well go for the Enlighten
Buff Devil tarot to fix Summoner.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
699 is awful. The buildup damage isn't what's obscene about it, and making it even more reliant on the timebomb is just a surefire way to double-nerf it when the real problems are fixed. Standing there eating damage *should* kill you, even if you're the tankiest person and they're doing a relatively simple combo.
700 is a little less awful in the problem, but the solutions are eh. I'd just put an entropy cost on it, even if the saps are in shadowbinding. That extends out the time to the entropy dump in exchange for a higher cap on the finisher.
Um, I am trying to figure out what kind of formula there is behind the entropy mechanism and how much damage increase you'll get from it.
Here below is a fresh example and no, this is not made up numbers.
First attack:
Eochaid swings a Shadowthorn flail powerfully at you, ravaging your flesh. Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you. You wince as the curved thorns on a Shadowthorn flail tear lacerations into your skin. Eochaid leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind. Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you. 24.6% psychic & psychic, mental & blunt, physical <- Bit curious on the double psychic dmg on entropy.
Second attack:
Eochaid razes your aura of rebounding with a Shadowthorn flail.
Eochaid swings a Shadowthorn flail powerfully at you, ravaging your flesh.
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you.
You wince as the curved thorns on a Shadowthorn flail tear lacerations into your skin.
Eochaid leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind.
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you. 21.5% psychic & psychic, mental & blunt, physical
And third attack:
Eochaid swings a Shadowthorn flail powerfully at you, ravaging your flesh.
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you.
You wince as the curved thorns on a Shadowthorn flail tear lacerations into your skin.
Eochaid leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind.
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you. 29.4% psychic & psychic, mental & blunt, physical
That's ~5% max hp increase of dmg. How much entropy-building that was on 1 attack + raze + 1 attack I am unsure off. But I wouldn't say that the damage-increase with entropy increase is that awful? That was against Runeguard as well, so not really paper defenses. Would be really nice to see the formula though instead of trying to figure it out from logs and still being unsure you miss something.
Entropy causes damage on entropy gain after a certain threshold (so that 'first' attack wasn't the first.)
Considering that was probably a team, I would assume you have sensitivity stuck well enough by the second hit. The gain isn't going to be that high otherwise. No toxin line from the ravage is a little weird - did you edit that out?
And checking you on mirror, I don't see fieldplate or fullplate.
There are multiple parts of the damage calculation, since there are multiple parts of the attack.
The damage for the torment modifier (Eochaid leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind.) is based on the amount of entropy that the target had prior to the attack if that amount is greater than 20%.
The formula is, roughly, if entropy > 20 then<br> damage = ((static_amount + healthpercent(5)) * (entropy_percent / 100)) / 2
Nah I had fullplate @Kabaal. I wasn't after the damage as per so, it was more about the discussion on the entropy effect in itself, because I felt it was so much guessing back and forth and felt it would be so much easier to discuss the actual numbers that Eoghan so kindly presented.
Discussing some further... Is that the formula for the actual ENTROPY effect? OR is that the entropy affliction?
There are multiple parts of the damage calculation, since there are multiple parts of the attack.
The damage for the torment modifier (Eochaid leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind.) is based on the amount of entropy that the target had prior to the attack if that amount is greater than 20%.
The formula is, roughly, if entropy > 20 then<br> damage = ((static_amount + healthpercent(5)) * (entropy_percent / 100)) / 2
Wait a tick I think Elrith is asking about the
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you. damage not the torment hit itself?
Well, I feel kinda certain I found answer on the question on that effect in itself. And it seems to increase by roughly 2 raw psychic per 5% entropy, not that scary truth to be told and most likely not the major concern.
I did most likely oversee something that caused that leap because its been proved wrong.
So back to the drawing board. Did discuss a bit about having entropy fade in a reverse kind of way from what bard does with resonance.
You attack -> It fades in X amount after Y seconds.
You don't attack -> It fades faster and or in higher numbers.
As a way to prevent hit and run. And perhaps a way to prevent turtle play from being as effective as now?
I have said -5% entropy/5s with no entropy gain on target would be my preferred fix for the current issue of the 2m falloff timer. I commented as much on the submitted 'entropy' classlead.
I think its a good fix to the overall issue of not being able to reset the fight. Once you have a natural or decent rate of entropy decay you open up a lot of options for counter play without breaking the class.
There are multiple parts of the damage calculation, since there are multiple parts of the attack.
The damage for the torment modifier (Eochaid leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind.) is based on the amount of entropy that the target had prior to the attack if that amount is greater than 20%.
Some statistics to feed the fire. This is only over a short period and doesn't take many things into consideration, but it's interesting for the data lovers among us. (This is for PVP only)
I think looking at the K:D ratio would be more helpful than the damage itself. Defiler is obviously standing out among the other profs, which (for the most part) have a far more reasonable kill/death rate. It's funny that Pred(a damage prof) has the lowest damage output recorded though.
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(may vanish for periods of time)
Like a daydream.. or a fever
700 is a little less awful in the problem, but the solutions are eh. I'd just put an entropy cost on it, even if the saps are in shadowbinding. That extends out the time to the entropy dump in exchange for a higher cap on the finisher.
Here below is a fresh example and no, this is not made up numbers.
First attack:
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you.
You wince as the curved thorns on a Shadowthorn flail tear lacerations into your skin.
Eochaid leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind.
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you. 24.6% psychic & psychic, mental & blunt, physical <- Bit curious on the double psychic dmg on entropy.
Second attack:
And third attack:
That's ~5% max hp increase of dmg. How much entropy-building that was on 1 attack + raze + 1 attack I am unsure off. But I wouldn't say that the damage-increase with entropy increase is that awful? That was against Runeguard as well, so not really paper defenses. Would be really nice to see the formula though instead of trying to figure it out from logs and still being unsure you miss something.
Perhaps Dec can explain how it works?
Entropy causes damage on entropy gain after a certain threshold (so that 'first' attack wasn't the first.)
Considering that was probably a team, I would assume you have sensitivity stuck well enough by the second hit. The gain isn't going to be that high otherwise. No toxin line from the ravage is a little weird - did you edit that out?
And checking you on mirror, I don't see fieldplate or fullplate.
The damage for the torment modifier (Eochaid leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind.) is based on the amount of entropy that the target had prior to the attack if that amount is greater than 20%.
The formula is, roughly,
if entropy > 20 then<br> damage = ((static_amount + healthpercent(5)) * (entropy_percent / 100)) / 2How much is the static_amount?
Nah I had fullplate @Kabaal. I wasn't after the damage as per so, it was more about the discussion on the entropy effect in itself, because I felt it was so much guessing back and forth and felt it would be so much easier to discuss the actual numbers that Eoghan so kindly presented.
Discussing some further... Is that the formula for the actual ENTROPY effect? OR is that the entropy affliction?
I did most likely oversee something that caused that leap because its been proved wrong.
So back to the drawing board. Did discuss a bit about having entropy fade in a reverse kind of way from what bard does with resonance.
You attack -> It fades in X amount after Y seconds.
You don't attack -> It fades faster and or in higher numbers.
As a way to prevent hit and run. And perhaps a way to prevent turtle play from being as effective as now?
(may vanish for periods of time)
I think looking at the K:D ratio would be more helpful than the damage itself. Defiler is obviously standing out among the other profs, which (for the most part) have a far more reasonable kill/death rate. It's funny that Pred(a damage prof) has the lowest damage output recorded though.