Juran and I are looking at that too, but it is unrelated to this thread.
@Garryn, pretty sure it will be like this, but will Wytch aeon be able to strip speed still? Or are you introducing a diff. mechanic for them to strip speed?
I know people have answered this before, but why is it again that empress has global range on lusted? It would make sense for mutual allies because of its necessity for raiding, but incidentally that is the only situation where it doesnt work.
I believe it is the last skill that allows global range summoning since grove summon and vodun summon are both long gone, and I really see little use for it beyong ganking and being a general pest.
But it does have a significant EQ cost that makes it impractical mid fight or while trying to escape. Also, the "there's QN easy enough way to stop it" argument didn't wok for any iteration of grove summon, so neither does it work for empress.
Plus, last time I checked, Summoners never had Grove Trap or whatever required you to crash to escape, nor could cause slow movement between rooms in a WHOLE area, passively.
Lust is pretty stupid and overpowered. The amount of people Menoch got when we were doing 4v4 was hilarious, because you basically had 4 seconds to react. While its true monolith stops it, there is no risk for the summoner. As an example, Menoch can enter the area where a shardfall is happening, stand somewhere, lust someone who doesn't reject for whatever reason (Busy in fighting, lost some good eq from something. You will miss it. It happens. Again, ONLY 4 seconds) and then the next thing you know, you are in Stavenn.
The beta will probably see a fix, probably something like they can only pull the person if they are in the same area, so it still serves as a strong range
Menoch can enter the area where a shardfall is happening, stand somewhere, lust someone who doesn't reject for whatever reason (Busy in fighting, lost some good eq from something. You will miss it. It happens. Again, ONLY 4 seconds) and then the next thing you know, you are in Stavenn.
If you are getting pulled to siege fire or guards when not within like a few rooms of a city you should totally issue for that. If you're in an entirely different area, that is abusive no matter what and should be punished.
I am not saying that is what menoch is doing, but just as a general note.
Edit: I tenatively don't mind it being local area only, but I also wish altar summon was local area only as well. If wishes were fishes~
So what are you people complaining about? Being lusted in general or being lusted to Stavenn? If the later, just issue.
Also, don't be bad and always harvest with a monolith down. I find it funny that the ones complaining are magickers instead of AM that not always have that easy way out.
I have been lusted in Stavenn, not for a while but my point is that you are lusted in a room where you are totally screwed anyway.
As for monoliths, you are missing the point. Its the global range affect. Lust is like a global radiance for a monk. Monk comes in the area, gets a lock, runs somewhere safe and radiances you
You can reject, you can mono/haze/hg, you can disruptor. The only times I really get lusts to stick long enough to empress is when people are not paying attention.
Also, of the two people I've empressed into siege, one was an accident, one was because I was convocated into siege just before that.
E: The real problem is that people freak out and try to kill the doppie, which I absolutely LOVE. It means this guy is going to be spam losing balance as soon as he sees doppie, and that's the way the vast majority of people get empressed. Lack of situational awareness.
As for monoliths, you are missing the point. Its the global range affect. Lust is like a global radiance for a monk. Monk comes in the area, gets a lock, runs somewhere safe and radiances you
Mind wrench I guess? Altar summon? I don't remember anything else. Mind wrench is not the same, while altar summon could probably see a go too. I'm not targeting lust, generally all those skills that are done from way afar.
Of course they're not the same. They're designed that way to add flavor to the game. You said lust was the only world-wide summon mechanic and used that as a reason to remove it from the game.
Not gonna lie, Lust is really a stupid check for pk. Just like when I enter an area and see a lot of people who consider themselves 'elite' and I start braziering my way down the list and pick my team up some easy kills. Look at it this way. Dying to lust is punishment for doing something wrong. Same with mind wrench, mind radiance (totally the same!) and altar summon.
Lust isn't a problem for anybody who carries around a monolith sigil or disruptor fork. If you're figthing, you should carry these around. It's that simple. Lust is easily preventable and if you get caught(like I did recently), it's because you made a mistake.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I have something coded into my system that rejects the second it can, no matter circumstance, unless I manually turn it off. Shouldn't everyone have something like that?
I absolutely LOVE it when people have those systems.
In team fights, I just sit there flinging lust repeatedly as your system locks you into eq-hell by rejecting it every time.
What you should do is have a setup like this:
/action {Dude flings a lust at you} {set $lusted to Dude}
/alias {rj} {reject $lusted}
This makes it easy to reject without automatically stealing your eq while allowing you to just drop a monolith and ignore the lust for a bit while you fight normally.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Here's the problem with the collective argument in defense of global lust-empress so far: you are not actually weighing in on the skill's merits; you are sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "lol u sux lrn2reject."
However, here in Imperian we do not balance based on the size of our epeen -- so far, the clear preference has been to remove all skills whose range extends beyond the limits of an area and even beyond the limits of a room, especially summoning skills. The burden of proof rests with you for demonstrating a legitimate need for out of area summoning. You can talk at length about how 'rejecting lust really isn't that hard', but as of yet I have seen no one give a use case for the skill that is not "yank someone back who has already left the area and would be considered safe under any other circumstance" or "gank someone who is not even actively involved in fighting and is sitting half a continent away". Even if there are things to help mitigate the risk of these two things happening, neither one is actually valid and should not be happening in the first place.
The fact is that everyone else lost their global ganking long ago, its time for demoners to stop acting like a child throwing a tantrum because he doesn't want to put the toy back in the toybox before he goes home.
Actually, the burden of proof is on you to show that it needs changed. We've been able to make sufficient arguments against global cataclysm and the cruel lament and the grove hinder/summon to get them removed/modified, because they had truly negative effects on the game, like the "You have to stay indoors or die" argument. These skills weren't able to be countered by intelligent play or sensible precautions because they were 100% initiated from a global range, and often from a position of safety, and so the only real precautions were "don't go outside".
Losing to lust, on the other hand, is basically a PEBCAK issue. Carry monoliths/disruptors. Shield preventively. Reject properly. Good players rarely lusted like this, and when we do, it is almost always because we made a crucial error, like "not realizing all your monoliths decayed and failing to buy new ones" or "had a brainfart and didn't check enemies before renouncing grace".
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Again, you are ignoring the point that while there are things you can do to mitigate the risk, it is a risk against something that is not legitimate in the first place. If your target has made it out of the area and is safely back to their city, there shouldn't be an extra gotcha that is only available to demonic which allows you to pull them back. Now that there is amnesty for participation in PK events, lust-empress does far too much to blur the lines between attacking an active participant and getting revenge on someone for having participated.
Again, you are ignoring the point that while there are things you can do to mitigate the risk, it is a risk against something that is not legitimate in the first place. If your target has made it out of the area and is safe back to their city, there shouldn't be an extra gotcha that is only available to demonic which allows you to pull them back. Now that there is amnesty for participation in PK events, lust-empress does far too much to blur the lines between attacking an active participant and getting revenge on someone for having participated.
Actually, you're ignoring the good points. Yours however are not good points. First and foremost, if you're in a city worth being in it's hazewarded/holy grounded/monolithed and empress won't work anyways. If it's not, blame your city, not the skill. Second, if you were running from combat to 'catch a breather' you probably shielded, which stops empress. Honestly, if you plan on afking, you should be shielded. Third, lust is on you to reject. Just like it's on me to be massed or move when altar summon (accessible to everyone) initiates. Third, your last argument is bad because it has nothing to do with the mechanics of lust. If you feel like you died outside of a shard fall unfairly, the correct response is "Issue" and not "forums."
Also check these out: AB ENGINEERING TUNINGFORK and AB ENGINEERING DISRUPTOR. Both are passive. AKA: You can still be bad and not reject and still not die. At least for a little while.
-Monolith sigil and parallels, including disruptor (engineering is available to everyone (and you can go to Caanae shops, they are always there)).
-Reject player, and being smart about it. Something I'm not going into detail about, because I look forward to using it. Basically don't be silly with your balance.
Lust/Empress times as Intelligent (neutral balance):
-Lust - 4.2 seconds. Yes. It is over 4 seconds. If you can code one echo, and not mindlessly go OH NO NOT A DEMON THAT LOOKS LIKE MENOCH then you'll NEVER fail to reject in time.
-Empress - 3.2 seconds. Yes. That means with one summoner, if you are somehow newbed up and caught offbal, 3.2 seconds for hangedman. In a group fight I realize engage/gravehands/tentacles and the like will be there... but I get a wholllllle lot of 1v1 kills against 'good' players from continually empressing them back into my room.
Reasons why Lust/Empress are in no way whatsoever however way you want to ever look at it in any way like radiance, let alone a global one:
-Radiance, for those of us unfamiliar with the skill. Kills. You. On. Completion. Neither lust, nor empress, (sad to say for me) can do that.
-Empress doesn't work at all for any but allies without Lust. Radiance has a prerequisite of a mindlock... which unless you are permanently keeping telesense on (lol why, who plays monk) gives no message. If I could mask doppie lust, you'd all know it by now. Well. Yeah gonna leave that one alone.
These are some facts guys, let's try making our arguments for or against certain things taking these brief and simple points into account. Of course it is sort of difficult to know how pk works if you don't pk.
The only situations where lust is particularly annoying:
When it's Eldreth(the only summoner I've seen that can sneak lusts in pre-death/kill without being stupidly obvious), in which case it's my bad for not checking allies and telling everyone else to check for lust as well.
When I'm leading a group, actively moving(just moving to a new shard, or rushing) and someone in that group gets lusted, have to immediately reject or get ganked, and get thrown off-eq/left behind while I'm moving somewhere. This is crappy and easy for people to do, with no simple solutions besides me just keeping a disruptor up during the entire shardfall(which is something I've started doing anyway).
And when certain people feel like being dicks and start killing novices or idle people while they're raiding. *This can be done through Telepathy and Naturebinding, albeit slower.
I don't particularly like Lust, but that's probably mostly because Summoner is an annoying class anyway.
Eldreth uses the same masked lust in melee that all our summoners do. I have, several times, caught you going all HEY GUYS LOOK A DEMON ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK and lust/empressed you offbal in shardfalls. You're a really good proof of how weak it really is, because you just immediately move.
You can't really use empress to raid with and pull people. I know you have almost no pk experience, so you're unaware I guess that every city ever has monos/haze/hg everywhere... and see previous post, so you can figure out how that doesn't work.
For the record, foul language and not so subtle jibes aside, the only people that have been killed in this whole thing are people that either A) pulled a Shaylei and ran off at the mouth the whole time, actively participated in raid defense. If you don't want to see lowbies on deathsight when we raid, mayyyyyyyybe someone should tell Arakis not to give security privileges to level 30 characters to try to have them guardrush.
Summoner isn't annoying, it's weak. It's a newb killer class, utterly. It kills bads. You are bad if you die to summoner in 1v1.
Lust isn't a problem, anyone that does or has actively pk'd and knows what they are on about agrees, and we are still derailing this thread to speculate about changing things we have no real information about outside the AB's, as the beta isn't even open yet. Fruitless speculation is hilarious, but come on.
Comments
@Garryn, pretty sure it will be like this, but will Wytch aeon be able to strip speed still? Or are you introducing a diff. mechanic for them to strip speed?
I believe it is the last skill that allows global range summoning since grove summon and vodun summon are both long gone, and I really see little use for it beyong ganking and being a general pest.
Plus, last time I checked, Summoners never had Grove Trap or whatever required you to crash to escape, nor could cause slow movement between rooms in a WHOLE area, passively.
Also, don't be bad and always harvest with a monolith down. I find it funny that the ones complaining are magickers instead of AM that not always have that easy way out.
Also, of the two people I've empressed into siege, one was an accident, one was because I was convocated into siege just before that.
Not gonna lie, Lust is really a stupid check for pk. Just like when I enter an area and see a lot of people who consider themselves 'elite' and I start braziering my way down the list and pick my team up some easy kills. Look at it this way. Dying to lust is punishment for doing something wrong. Same with mind wrench, mind radiance (totally the same!) and altar summon.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I absolutely LOVE it when people have those systems.
In team fights, I just sit there flinging lust repeatedly as your system locks you into eq-hell by rejecting it every time.
What you should do is have a setup like this:
This makes it easy to reject without automatically stealing your eq while allowing you to just drop a monolith and ignore the lust for a bit while you fight normally.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
However, here in Imperian we do not balance based on the size of our epeen -- so far, the clear preference has been to remove all skills whose range extends beyond the limits of an area and even beyond the limits of a room, especially summoning skills. The burden of proof rests with you for demonstrating a legitimate need for out of area summoning. You can talk at length about how 'rejecting lust really isn't that hard', but as of yet I have seen no one give a use case for the skill that is not "yank someone back who has already left the area and would be considered safe under any other circumstance" or "gank someone who is not even actively involved in fighting and is sitting half a continent away". Even if there are things to help mitigate the risk of these two things happening, neither one is actually valid and should not be happening in the first place.
The fact is that everyone else lost their global ganking long ago, its time for demoners to stop acting like a child throwing a tantrum because he doesn't want to put the toy back in the toybox before he goes home.
Actually, the burden of proof is on you to show that it needs changed. We've been able to make sufficient arguments against global cataclysm and the cruel lament and the grove hinder/summon to get them removed/modified, because they had truly negative effects on the game, like the "You have to stay indoors or die" argument. These skills weren't able to be countered by intelligent play or sensible precautions because they were 100% initiated from a global range, and often from a position of safety, and so the only real precautions were "don't go outside".
Losing to lust, on the other hand, is basically a PEBCAK issue. Carry monoliths/disruptors. Shield preventively. Reject properly. Good players rarely lusted like this, and when we do, it is almost always because we made a crucial error, like "not realizing all your monoliths decayed and failing to buy new ones" or "had a brainfart and didn't check enemies before renouncing grace".
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
When it's Eldreth(the only summoner I've seen that can sneak lusts in pre-death/kill without being stupidly obvious), in which case it's my bad for not checking allies and telling everyone else to check for lust as well.
When I'm leading a group, actively moving(just moving to a new shard, or rushing) and someone in that group gets lusted, have to immediately reject or get ganked, and get thrown off-eq/left behind while I'm moving somewhere. This is crappy and easy for people to do, with no simple solutions besides me just keeping a disruptor up during the entire shardfall(which is something I've started doing anyway).
And when certain people feel like being dicks and start killing novices or idle people while they're raiding. *This can be done through Telepathy and Naturebinding, albeit slower.
I don't particularly like Lust, but that's probably mostly because Summoner is an annoying class anyway.
Summoner isn't annoying, it's weak. It's a newb killer class, utterly. It kills bads. You are bad if you die to summoner in 1v1.
Lust isn't a problem, anyone that does or has actively pk'd and knows what they are on about agrees, and we are still derailing this thread to speculate about changing things we have no real information about outside the AB's, as the beta isn't even open yet. Fruitless speculation is hilarious, but come on.