I think one of my favorite villains ever in a game was Kael'thas because he straight up believed until his death that he was doing what was right by his people.
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
The thing about Ihsan is that, from the outside, the overwhelming theme you got was "For the Empire!" and not "Because I love killing!".
Dregaur, Jagara, most all the other historical antagonists? The overwhelming theme you got was "I'm doing this cause I'm evil!", whether it was Dregaur's babykilling or Jagara's "Muahaha and Murder" combo.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Menoch said:
Gurn said:
IMO, the person who played the best villain in Imperian was Ihsan, I think.
That's just because you were on the other end of it. If you were on his side you'd realize he was less villainous and more narcissistic.
True, but I think that's part of what's cool about it. A villian that controls an empire rearing for war and trying to shoot down a goddamned sun so they can put their own in the sky is bound to be at least a little narcissistic.
But when I fought against him, I did get that feeling of a narcissistic Xerxes-like emperor who thought he was greater than he was. More than the usual "I'LL KILL YOU" and standard "evil dialect" that we see from most antagonists or the passive aggressive tone that Sarrius likes to use, there was an actual undertone of evil beneath all of it.
When he did things, it wasn't an eye rolling "Really? Again?" kind of thing or "He's just doing it to be a ****," but you felt like damnit, this man was trying to establish an empire. Not only that, he didn't look down on his opponents, but regarded them with a certain civility and respect, which only added to that really good villain feel.
He was a character with a motive that really fleshed him out. Too many people who try playing antagonists fall into the standard antagonistic shallow stereotypes without exploring the deeper nature of a good villain.
I'm confused. Are we talking about the same Ihsan here? I mean, he was awesome, but being in the receiving end of Ihsan wasn't remotely like that, at least during his 'Me want spear' stage.
Ihsan was the type of bad guy that should be called "The Filibuster." Oh wow, Burt beat up Violet. Nice high point on the resume. After that, Stavenn picked up the assist from Celidon to win an event-on-rails. Ihsan had pretty solid "Why I think I'm awesome" rhetoric. That's about as much depth as it ever had. Imperian really hasn't had a solid villain. It's had a couple 'good' try outs, but no one has made it into the finals.
Anarion and Red Khandava is close, Harker doing anything (running Ithaqua into the ground) was sort of villain-y. (Note: Both those things involve Wrath).
Talking about the fight with Ahkan, specifically. If he had spent rage the moment that went off, trigger wouldn't have activated, and I would've had to reset from the beginning again. Other professions have other ways of slowing and stopping Hunter momentum that still progress your own kill.
Nah, laughing is what I am. When I saw that you were spamming aconite/peace for trigger, I resigned myself to the unavoidable ending. Why is it unavoidable? To win I have to be able to hit. To hit I can't be peaced. To remove peace, I have to cure it, eating two more afflictions.
The best part of it is that I classleaded peace thinking it was only in Wytch, Malig, Hypno and Devotion. I didn't know hunters had it, let alone could trigger off of it. What ended up pushing me over the edge was the trigger I ate off of peace. Peace was a useless affliction until I classleaded. (I also thought no one would be dumb enough to put a combat-blocking mechanic behind instill/trigger)
For more irony, congratulations! You've fallen from your loftly white knight pedestal and behaved like Sarrius and the rest of us.
Nah, laughing is what I am. When I saw that you were spamming aconite/peace for trigger, I resigned myself to the unavoidable ending. Why is it unavoidable? To win I have to be able to hit. To hit I can't be peaced. To remove peace, I have to cure it, eating two more afflictions.
The best part of it is that I classleaded peace thinking it was only in Wytch, Malig, Hypno and Devotion. I didn't know hunters had it, let alone could trigger off of it. What ended up pushing me over the edge was the trigger I ate off of peace. Peace was a useless affliction until I classleaded. (I also thought no one would be dumb enough to put a combat-blocking mechanic behind instill/trigger)
For more irony, congratulations! You've fallen from your loftly white knight pedestal and behaved like Sarrius and the rest of us.
No, I'm telling you that Hunter isn't this juggernaut powerhouse of an unstoppable profession you think it is. There are actually quite a bit of things that prevent us from attacking that no one's really bothered to figure out yet. If I fought myself as a Runeguard, I'd be shutting down Hunter so hard I wouldn't be able to get any consistent offence off.
That being said, yeah, I can see how it's more difficult to figure out these flaws if you're looking at it from an outside viewpoint, but, really, there's a lot to do to shut down Hunter and slow momentum to the point where it's really, really difficult to pull any kills off.
Here's something to start. People need to stop shielding when fighting 1v1 against a Hunter and a failed brainmelt goes off. The EQ is really, really long and we don't have any way to take advantage of that damage momentum. You should press your advantage then.
Ihsan was the type of bad guy that should be called "The Filibuster." Oh wow, Burt beat up Violet. Nice high point on the resume. After that, Stavenn picked up the assist from Celidon to win an event-on-rails. Ihsan had pretty solid "Why I think I'm awesome" rhetoric. That's about as much depth as it ever had. Imperian really hasn't had a solid villain. It's had a couple 'good' try outs, but no one has made it into the finals.
Anarion and Red Khandava is close, Harker doing anything (running Ithaqua into the ground) was sort of villain-y. (Note: Both those things involve Wrath).
Eh. I wouldn't say Harker did anything villainy at all. Villainy, to me, requires intent. You don't have to intend to be a villain, mind you. You can be a villain with the best of intentions. Some of the best villains are like that, in fact.
But you've got to be intentionally doing something. If you're running an organization into the ground in a Caligula like display of not-a-single-damn-to-give or out of pure greed, that can be villainy. If you're running an organization into the ground because you're honestly trying your best and you're just incapable, that's not villainy, imo.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I don't think Hunter is a juggernaught or a powerhouse. Everything hinges on a stupid mechanic (trigger). After that it's a pretty feeble house of cards that doesn't bring much to a fight.
The part I was laughing at is:
Don't cure this affliction that keeps you from attacking or it's going to get you killed.
No, I'm telling you that Hunter isn't this juggernaut powerhouse of an unstoppable profession you think it is. There are actually quite a bit of things that prevent us from attacking that no one's really bothered to figure out yet. If I fought myself as a Runeguard, I'd be shutting down Hunter so hard I wouldn't be able to get any consistent offence off.
Runeguard is a same circle profession, thusly shouldn't be considered in this discussion. Not saying you couldn't do so with other non circle professions, just that it was a poor example. That's like me saying I can own any predator with ranger because of returning parry or whatever that skill is.
Also, does trigger fire off only the herb cures or does tree/purge/focus set them off too?
The thing to consider is this. Your goal isn't just to shutdown the hunter. Your goal is also to kill the hunter, and most of your heavy shutdown offenses aren't going to do that as most classes. This is especially true now that you can't roll writhes to prevent outrs and the like.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
No, I'm telling you that Hunter isn't this juggernaut powerhouse of an unstoppable profession you think it is. There are actually quite a bit of things that prevent us from attacking that no one's really bothered to figure out yet. If I fought myself as a Runeguard, I'd be shutting down Hunter so hard I wouldn't be able to get any consistent offence off.
Well. I was really just talking about sabre toxins, which Deathknight does just as well as a Runeguard, tablets aside.
And seeing as Deathknight can also timebomb that with limb damage, it doesn't prevent the kill. Just like how there are key moment you need to stop a renegade or assassin from kicking into gear, there are also very clear moments where you need to do that against a Hunter,
No, I'm telling you that Hunter isn't this juggernaut powerhouse of an unstoppable profession you think it is. There are actually quite a bit of things that prevent us from attacking that no one's really bothered to figure out yet. If I fought myself as a Runeguard, I'd be shutting down Hunter so hard I wouldn't be able to get any consistent offence off.
Well. I was really just talking about sabre toxins, which Deathknight does just as well as a Runeguard, tablets aside.
And seeing as Deathknight can also timebomb that with limb damage, it doesn't prevent the kill. Just like how there are key moment you need to stop a renegade or assassin from kicking into gear, there are also very clear moments where you need to do that against a Hunter,
I'm sorry but lol. Have you ever played deathknight? In 1v1 vs anyone with half a brain, its basically timebomb or bust. Saying "tablet aside" totally flips the script on what a toxin offense is between the two for 1v1.
I mean, I'm not a 1v1 guy and I'm also not very good in general. But you can't just throw out a skillset built around hindering curing out of the equation when one prof has it and the other doesn't and say they're equally good at toxins.
I spar against Gurn's Hunter on a regular basis, and I can usually downgrade his brainmelt to survivable levels by entangling him when the triggers start going off. Of course, it might be much harder for a profession without access to entangles to stop.
To answer Delrayne's question; triggers will fire regardless of cure method as long as it isn't on cooldown. Trigger goes on cooldown for 2 seconds when it fires.
I'm sorry but lol. Have you ever played deathknight? In 1v1 vs anyone with half a brain, its basically timebomb or bust. Saying "tablet aside" totally flips the script on what a toxin offense is between the two for 1v1.
I mean, I'm not a 1v1 guy and I'm also not very good in general. But you can't just throw out a skillset built around hindering curing out of the equation when one prof has it and the other doesn't and say they're equally good at toxins.
I say "tablets aside" because my toxin selections are done without tablets. The tablet runes are used only for finishing a target.
The point is not, "Lolskillsets different", it's that EVEN WITHOUT TABLETS OR OTHER SKILLS pure sabrework with proper toxins will be able to lock down a Hunter while forwarding your kill.
I spar against Gurn's Hunter on a regular basis, and I can usually downgrade his brainmelt to survivable levels by entangling him when the triggers start going off. Of course, it might be much harder for a profession without access to entangles to stop.
To answer Delrayne's question; triggers will fire regardless of cure method as long as it isn't on cooldown. Trigger goes on cooldown for 2 seconds when it fires.
Druid entangle is a root attack that can be used in concert with the wisps and the staff. It does not significantly hinder the druid's offense, and once it's prepared, it's an on-demand entangle that doesn't particularly waste combat resources, especially not when you have a pendant.
This is far from the case with many or most classes. Firstly, most don't even have the option of an on-demand entangle and requires setup for a transfix or the like. Second, of the classes that do, most will give up a shitload of momentum by going to disable, effectively resetting an offense.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Comments
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
Dregaur, Jagara, most all the other historical antagonists? The overwhelming theme you got was "I'm doing this cause I'm evil!", whether it was Dregaur's babykilling or Jagara's "Muahaha and Murder" combo.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
But when I fought against him, I did get that feeling of a narcissistic Xerxes-like emperor who thought he was greater than he was. More than the usual "I'LL KILL YOU" and standard "evil dialect" that we see from most antagonists or the passive aggressive tone that Sarrius likes to use, there was an actual undertone of evil beneath all of it.
When he did things, it wasn't an eye rolling "Really? Again?" kind of thing or "He's just doing it to be a ****," but you felt like damnit, this man was trying to establish an empire. Not only that, he didn't look down on his opponents, but regarded them with a certain civility and respect, which only added to that really good villain feel.
But yeah, peace now is really dangerous.
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
That being said, yeah, I can see how it's more difficult to figure out these flaws if you're looking at it from an outside viewpoint, but, really, there's a lot to do to shut down Hunter and slow momentum to the point where it's really, really difficult to pull any kills off.
I wouldn't say Harker did anything villainy at all. Villainy, to me, requires intent. You don't have to intend to be a villain, mind you. You can be a villain with the best of intentions. Some of the best villains are like that, in fact.
But you've got to be intentionally doing something. If you're running an organization into the ground in a Caligula like display of not-a-single-damn-to-give or out of pure greed, that can be villainy. If you're running an organization into the ground because you're honestly trying your best and you're just incapable, that's not villainy, imo.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Other person:
Spamming that affliction
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Also, does trigger fire off only the herb cures or does tree/purge/focus set them off too?
Well.
The thing to consider is this. Your goal isn't just to shutdown the hunter. Your goal is also to kill the hunter, and most of your heavy shutdown offenses aren't going to do that as most classes. This is especially true now that you can't roll writhes to prevent outrs and the like.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
And seeing as Deathknight can also timebomb that with limb damage, it doesn't prevent the kill. Just like how there are key moment you need to stop a renegade or assassin from kicking into gear, there are also very clear moments where you need to do that against a Hunter,
I mean, I'm not a 1v1 guy and I'm also not very good in general. But you can't just throw out a skillset built around hindering curing out of the equation when one prof has it and the other doesn't and say they're equally good at toxins.
To answer Delrayne's question; triggers will fire regardless of cure method as long as it isn't on cooldown. Trigger goes on cooldown for 2 seconds when it fires.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
I'm sorry but lol. Have you ever played deathknight? In 1v1 vs anyone with half a brain, its basically timebomb or bust. Saying "tablet aside" totally flips the script on what a toxin offense is between the two for 1v1.
I mean, I'm not a 1v1 guy and I'm also not very good in general. But you can't just throw out a skillset built around hindering curing out of the equation when one prof has it and the other doesn't and say they're equally good at toxins.
I say "tablets aside" because my toxin selections are done without tablets. The tablet runes are used only for finishing a target.
The point is not, "Lolskillsets different", it's that EVEN WITHOUT TABLETS OR OTHER SKILLS pure sabrework with proper toxins will be able to lock down a Hunter while forwarding your kill.
Druid entangle is a root attack that can be used in concert with the wisps and the staff. It does not significantly hinder the druid's offense, and once it's prepared, it's an on-demand entangle that doesn't particularly waste combat resources, especially not when you have a pendant.
This is far from the case with many or most classes. Firstly, most don't even have the option of an on-demand entangle and requires setup for a transfix or the like. Second, of the classes that do, most will give up a shitload of momentum by going to disable, effectively resetting an offense.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."