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Post Classlead Discussion (Dec 2013)

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  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I meant they are/were the gateway drug into every class being able to do a bit of everything - Damage? check. Afflictions? check. Limb damage? check. It's no longer dichotomous - everyone's becoming a hybrid.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd like to see Feint removed. Limb damage is already the easy-mode combat style and feint makes it even worse. Hit parry? Feint/hit/hit! Opponent's parrying too well? Feint every combo! You lose a bit of momentum, but it's not like that actually matters in a limb damage class.

    Every time there's a reliable "if they're prone-broken you get to kill them" skill it becomes an unstoppable timebomb. Back "in the day" it was the predator nine-combo kill and now it's the fast monk.

    Limb damage is broken as is, we don't need feint to go along with it.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    People are going to say: "bluhbluhbluh, you shouldn't be able to lock a parry on a limb."

    To preemptively counter that there are 5 other targets to hit which will eat salve balance and eventually prevent parrying. It's really akin to being able to stick 5 mental afflictions before you meet a kill condition. I broke your right arm so you couldn't parry your left leg. Since limb damage isn't curable, this isn't really a big deal as long as you're hitting that limb once every 60s. You don't see parry stopping wardens, do you?
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2014
    Iniar said:
    Limb counter = 60 s / limb 
    Hammerfist (fast) = 2.6
    Dsl (fast) ~= 2.2

    Pr( successful reset ) = 0.2^(60/2.6) = 0.02 = 2%
    Include torso and Pr( successful reset ) = 1.7%
    Include feint and Pr( successful reset ) = 0%
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    Before the Cruel Lament change, I had to apply this strategy:

    Songs - Damage - Cruel Lament - Afflict - Damage

    Now I only needed to do:

    Songs - Afflict - Cruel Lament - Damage

    By applying this, it greatly helps the low resonance ceiling I was facing before, especially against higher tiered fighters.

    Thank you for the change Garryn.
    image
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Summoners:

    Dehydrate and nervewrack should give fire damage. Less damage than combustion or fever so the same damage that nerveburn gives. I think those two skills did not give damage in the beta because one used to give healthleech and the other used to give sensitivity. Now that they were changed and Summoner's damage was reduced severely for infused Noctu this will be a good change. This change doesn't affect Intelligent Summoners, just Fast Summoners. 
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2014
    Tarot: Chariot
    -Give the chariot  the waterwalking and the gallop effects. A flying chariot should have these things.

    Tarot: Wheel
    -Currently, Wheel flings the target in a random direction if the target is unmassed, and it channels for a brief period to do the same thing if the target is massed. I would like for Wheel to break prismatic barrier based on the same criteria. 

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, one thing I'd like to look at since we've really sort of perturbed overall game balance is stat-packs. Namely re-examining the way we handle stats and the way we apply non-stat modifiers.

    #1. The notion of a 'dump' stat.
    Imperian's metagame doesn't really favor a dump stat. Int races lose points which has absolutely 0 impact on your offense, and you can pick up an artifact shield on the cheap for chump change. Strength races on the other hand eat a terrible dump stat penalty as their mana pool drops which reduces their mana sip, they mana regen and sets them up as absolve/reclaim/catharsis bait. What I'd honestly like to see is that no stat drops below 10 or 11, then delete two shields and re-work the shield system making buckler/artifact equal and at 'neutral' stats.

    tl/dr: Str is a 'who cares' dump stat. Int is a WHY ME?

    Compare strong and intelligent. They both come in at 51 points, they both take a -1 damage resist penalty and strong takes a equilibrium malus in exchange for +1? Get out. 

    #2. Resistances
    Damage types aren't really broad enough in pve or pvp to make element specific resistances noticeable. Worse, class defenses (AM for exampled) are infested with flat resists across a variety of damage types that go out of their way to offset racial penalties. To counter this, I'd rather see a new system of flat non-phys resistances/malus.
    +/- 1: 6%
    +/- 2: 12%
    +/- 3: 18%

    This actually makes it a malus and brings to bear more of an impact. You're not weak against 1 class, you're weak against all classes. The flip side of this is that it endorses investing in mini-skills and resistance rings.

    tl/dr: No one cares about most of these resistances. They should.


    #3 Bal/Eq Maluses
    These are really skewed modifiers. An eq class really doesn't have to take balance actions, so you very rarely ever feel the sting of a balance penalty. Physical classes feel the burn of a -1 balance so bad that it's unusable. Aka, Powerful should lose the -1 balance, regardless. However, physical classes feel the the sting of -eq penalties because that's looking at anything you eq/bal combo and anything you use for eq, which you use a lot of surprisingly. At the end of the day, I'd really only justify one eq penalty and that's to powerful, and even then I don't think it should be a thing. I'd honestly just remove both balance and eq malus entirely.

    Tl/dr: these are so dumb and used in the weirdest places

    Examples of how I would apply this:
    Dexterous in my eyes, is a balanced statpack.
    I'd ding intelligent with a level 1 non-phys, tbh.
    Fast would qualify for level 2 malus to non-phys and still eat a sip penalty.
    Strong would lose the eq penalty, but would pay for it with 1-2 con and a str. They'd also lose the non-phys resistance.
    Powerful would lose cut/blunt, int would bump up to 10, keep level 1 non-phys and keep the -eq penalty.

    Humans:
    I'd also can the +experience bonuses and apply them as +1/+2 stat bonuses with neutral balance/eq/resistances

    Just thoughts, but I'd like to see a lot of this leveled out.


  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The strength thing has irritated me for years. Sacrificing strength has never ever mattered for a caster class, but sacrificing int is a huge hit, especially because so many abilities are a fixed cost.  Trueassess is 4.5% of my max mana as intelligent, but as strong it's almost 10% of it. Dropping intelligence is a huge hit regardless of what class you're playing

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also, I'd like to see fast lose a few points of strength. Right now, they do something like ~5-8% less damage than strong because hitting 20% faster does a lot to make up for having five less strength. Fast doesn't need comparable damage to the high damage statpacks in addition to its huge balance benefit.

    Another thing I'd like to see is sabres getting the claymore treatment and losing the ability to target limbs. Want to push a limb offense? Give up affliction speed.


    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am no expert but easily the biggest difference for me is a +1 to +2 bal. Everything else is window dressing. If you're talking about player retention, moving from a +1 to +2 bal completely changes your affliction game, at least for most of demonic's classes - that is from [*****] difficulty as Clever to [**] difficulty as Fast. Bring the balance bonuses closer to each other, maybe make it 0.93 so a +2 bal would be 0.865 rather than 0.81. Also, find the biggest brightest fire and burn sabres in them.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    I get the feeling we need a knight revamp soon.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Haha, knight revamp. I'd be surprised. There's a lot of :effort: floating around.

    #1 Knights are all pretty solid. Templar is op. Runeguard is a cheese factory. Deathknight is the most 'balanced' class in the entire game.

    #2 You'd have to revamp smithing/weapons and send smithing to a general skillset.
    Let's be honest. No one really wants to address fixing weaponry because it's a huge undertaking and no one really has an idea how to fix it.

    #3 You'd have to design between 3-9 new skills. Not going to lie, they'd all be combo classes. Hell, they'd probably do damage, afflict, heal, throw someone in the room and bake a cake on every balance.

    #4 You can avoid all that work by making smart design decisions with the existing skills. 

    Tbh, I hope they don't redesign knights. I know I've wanted to re-design them before, but given what has happened lately, I really hope they don't.

  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd personally like for knights to be big tanky brawlers capable of some burst, but I know people would get ornery if a single class in the game did not have some kind of unique 1v1 kill condition. 
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”

  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2014
    Knights are big tanky brawlers capable of burst right now? You mean like fisticuffs brawling? :P

    Put me down for limb-target-less sabre as well. I think it would be an interesting idea, easier to implement than removing feint from the game and also encourage more weapon diversity.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2014
    Feint is a really weird subject. Feint was justifiable on monks back in the day because they didn't have kai-strike and they were locked out of their offense by hinders. You had to make the most of every combination or your set up was nerfed. There also weren't friendly 33%, 66%, 100% break messages so you were hoping to god your limb counter worked on the hp, limb armor, class combination of the victim.

    That isn't the case anymore. You cannot stop a limb damage offense. They have kai-strike and they know exactly when they're going to break my limbs if they have fifth grade math skills. It's less of "if they break my limbs" and more "when they break my limbs." They're in control of when and what combo my limbs break. It leads to unavoidable kill conditions that you knew were coming and you were 100% powerless to stop.

    The same goes for predators. Knights never needed feint. 
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iluv said:
    Knights are big tanky brawlers capable of burst right now? You mean like fisticuffs brawling? :P

    Put me down for limb-target-less sabre as well. I think it would be an interesting idea, easier to implement than removing feint from the game and also encourage more weapon diversity.
    Ideally, I'd like to drop stuff like vivisect, afflicting, I dunno. I'm sure diehard 1v1ers will call it boring, but I'd like knights to just be large, hit sort of hard if left unhindered and be good at protecting allies. I've said it before, but I'd like class roles to be a little bit more defined. In the age of Garryn revamps, every single class has to have some kind of affliction setup in order to do a million damage, et cetera. Hyperbole, but you get my point.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”

  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2014
    Khizan said it best befofe. This game isn't suited for Moba-style role designs.

    There was an interesting idea brought up before to restricting Knight DSL toxins for each Knight to a specific flavour set. Playing around with that and fixing up some DK issues is what I'd like to see. Also, I think templars access to mirroring/emblazon/cleansing is a little much. Out of the three, I think mirroring can use some adjustment.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not even talking about a moba combat style, so much as something more along the lines of what MKO did. 
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”

  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Imperian isn't build for moba-style role combat. However, you can build for it. People do build for it.

    What Bathan is asking for is something that Khizan and I have harped on. There's a a section of the game (and beta) that will fight tooth and nail for every class to have
    -Travel ability
    -Block ability
    -Escape ability
    -1v1 affliction pro mode
    -team easy mode button


    Which is a departure from the class design paradigm before hand. What Bathan wants (I think?) is to remove that 1v1 focus from Knight, but allow it to remain a beefy class that can 1v1 if it wants to, but it's true strength in combat is off-tanking/dps. I agree with him, I am not a fan of every redesign having a distinct 1v1 champion mode put-away. It gets sort of..dull. Things are more fun and allow for clever/smart gaming when not all classes are created equal

  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Convinced on the removing feint part. Also, black-out and immolation from monk need to go.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm in favour of turning knights into big beefy tank sort of classes, but my concern is keeping them still fun to play. I mean, dsl/flare sowulu dsl/flare pithakhan dsl/flare nauthiz and repeat forever as your only strat isn't exactly fun. 

    Anyway, that aside, I think a big thing to look at for knights is weaponry and smithing. The mass majority of weapons are completely and utterly useless as of the moment, and rolling RNG on weapons just isn't fun at all. The fact that just to be viable for damage or afflictions you need an artifact level weapon or higher is ridiculous-- Not to mention that the "to-hit" stat is completely useless.

    It'd be interesting if we had how weapons work change. I have some ideas for how different grinds, weapon weights, momentum and whatever can make an interesting dynamic and allow pretty much all weapons to be useful depending on the situation.



  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We had a huge discussion on ring about weapons the other day. The drive behind the weaponry system is that "When opting for sabres, you're sacrificing damage." When I roll my level 3 sabre over a level 3 claymore/axe I am making 0 sacrifice. I will break limbs faster with a sabre. I will stick more toxins with a sabre. I will also have more consistent dps with a sabre. I even pick up 10% armor mitigation by getting to wield a shield. When we get into a mechanical discussion, I'm actually getting more legitimate hits with a sabre, because the balance time of claymore has been wasting 1/3-2/3 of my hits on raze/rsl. At the end of the day, you sacrifice -nothing- when you choose sabre as your primary weapon.

    The way the system works now, there's no real factor to weapons outside speed and damage. You'd have to add specific bonuses to non-sabre/claymores to really drive someone to using them, because they're outpaced 9.9 times out of 10. Every thing that's not at the extreme (speed and damage) here is a really niche item or generally worthless. It's just the way the numbers pan out. It's no one's fault, those weapon stats are over a decade old and built for a different game You're going to have to go a long way to make a skill more effective than remove shield/remove rebounding/damage/two afflictions+movement inhibition every 2.0s. This is me saying a large problem with weaponry and weapons is doubleslash. If you want to incorporate more 'weapons' into the knight-life, you're going to have give them weapon specific skills.

    The best 'weapon' coding I've seen has been 100% accidental. I.E. the way nairat/sowulu runelfares work. You're actually better served to grab a good broadsword and sync up your balances with runeflares and then you can obliterate dudes, a lot like Juran sycnh'd broadsword/flare. We could honestly take a lesson from this, but I doubt we will. 


  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Pretty much. I really like the idea of the knight being the master of all weapons-- It'd be pretty cool if we could build on smithing a little more, and add/subtract a few abilities to compensate. Like, let a knight who quickdraws from a halberd to a dagger to be able to knock someone down and stab them for massive bleeding or something(bad example, I know that's a lot like predator stances), or make it so that you can pick and choose different blade grinds and such and decide how large of a fuller you want to mill out of your blade for speed/balance.


  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You really like this blade thing Gurn :s
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Removing 1v1 viability really isn't going to be a thing. Yeah, not every class needs to be a master 1v1 duelist, but every class needs some kind of viable kill method, if for no other reason than that you have three skillsets worth of skills to fill in.

    Pure supports work in games where you've got limited team sizes and where you can plan compositions. You pick teams before you play in MOBAs, so you don't end up on a pure-support team. You pick your arena teams in WoW, your raid teams in WoW, etc. 

    Imperian's just not designed for a pure support class. To account for the fact that you might get a five Taric team(We call this "Team Kanthari"), you need to give these classes some fairly hefty damage. And to counterbalance the fact that they're intentionally not 1v1 capable, they'll need a boatload of team capability. And so, if the supporting abilities are strong enough to justify the class and and they stack, you end up with a case where stacking these dudes gets stupidly effective. If that's not the case, then every one you have past the first is just so much useless filler, and the first might be filler as well.

    I just do not see a way to really work a class like that without going over a major revamp of everything to account for specific roles.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2014
    Khizan said:

    Khizan stuff

    Most fun/unique/irritating class I've ever played - the anti-caster in Guildwars 1
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Iniar said:
    You really like this blade thing Gurn :s
    I have a rather large sword and knife collection and really wish some of the intricacies of bladed weapons and combat were integrated. :(


    Another thing about 1v1 functionality is simply how it looks from a person's perspective who only has one profession. Why the hell would anyone want to play the game as a support only profession that can't hold its own against anyone else? The idea of 1v1 viability is essential to that profession being viable to someone who doesn't have another profession to fall back on.



  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would really, really, really like a skill that heals limbs with a short duration channel of 3 seconds or so, just as a band-aid on limb damage. The fact that it's channeled means I'm not going to really be able to spam it midfight, since they can just interrupt it. On the other  hand, the fact that it's a short channel means that you get to heal up every time Brishi runs away or banishes to heal up himself.

    @Gurn :
    That's completely wrong, really. I'd go so far as to say that most people who play this game don't care about 1v1 viability. Lots of reasons for it. Juran and I don't care about it because we prefer team combat to rock/paper/scissors. Others don't have the ability. Or they don't have the credits for it. Or they just don't care about fighting in general.

    I honestly think a "support" class would prove very popular in Imperian if just so that people could say "See, it's not that I suck at the game, I just play a support class because I'm a team player."

    Of course, I don't think it would be good for the game for the aforementioned reasons. I just think it would be popular.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Khizan said:

    And to counterbalance the fact that they're intentionally not 1v1 capable, they'll need a boatload of team capability. … you end up with a case where stacking these dudes gets stupidly effective. If that's not the case, then every one you have past the first is just so much useless filler, and the first might be filler as well.

    One way to sidestep this is to make skills situationally useful, intelligently applied cool downs and internal and external caps. If say your character/profession could have maximum 5 auras that have effects that inversely scale to the number of active auras, and cap out at a limit 2-3 * an individual user, from a total selection of say 15-20 auras, and dispelling the auras have beneficial/harmful effects, both allies/in-room/individual/targetted; I'd totally play a class like that. And situationally useful skills:- active negation of specific skills is something that's always tricksy/fun/irritating like... casting a temporary spellblock right before the Summoner drops an Incinerate, casting a movement triggered double cripple before a Monk sets up his JPK, casting mimics like creating a duplicate shadowplant into the renegade's hands and letting your team know, casting something that restore your opponents mana to max but deals an equal amount of health damage, or vice versa to set up a Cath/Absolve could ruin your teams work if your Diab/Priest fails, growing an extra leg so I can stand (haha), channeled life-steal, channeled incurable but interruptible disloyalty! Man… I'd kill for actively disruptive skills that are situational and completely useless 1v1. :s
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
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