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Post Classlead Discussion (Dec 2013)

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  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but doesn't it say that specifically in the AB file for resonance? Seems like something worth classleading out rather than bugging.
    Voice - Resonance
    ...
    The other power words are unaffected. However, resonance is still increased, so plan accordingly.



  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    It does obviously, and probably will have to use up a classlead for it.
    image
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Obviously? You thought it was a bug, not an intended feature. And let us get this staight, you want to separate resonance per Bard, up the ceiling and remove small restrictions that encourage smarter play all at the same time. Might as well delete resonance and let Bards run whatever since in a group fight, people will die before ceiling is ever hit.
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    I figured the higher resonance ceiling wouldn't fly, but still want it regardless. Separate resonance would help greatly so lower bards aren't spamming up the resonance with lower skills (much as the discussion before with taint utilized the argument for people wasting taint and wanting someone like Eldreth using it).

    I really want to push for yoth, daemos, and kiyan not being affected by Ta. That's my number one priority.  
    image
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    The problem with a ceiling spend mechanicis that all of the Burst happens at the start of a fight and if that beginning Burst is effective enough to down targets before the ceiling is reached, it is as if the ceiling never existed in the first place.
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    Iluv said:
    The problem with a ceiling spend mechanicis that all of the Burst happens at the start of a fight and if that beginning Burst is effective enough to down targets before the ceiling is reached, it is as if the ceiling never existed in the first place.
    Which I can see being a problem in group as well. I agree with this. The only area where it it's a major problem for resonance is damage burst. Maybe we could half it more for afflicting and make it have major consequences for damage voice words, that way three bards aren't doing 400+ damage within 1 second and able to do it again, meaning I'm pushing for more 1v1 viability rather than group viability.

    And actually, thinking about it now, since Varaye is actually incredibly hard to apply, could it make We damage boosted when applied? That way, the bard has an actually way to damage the person down effectively without hitting the ceiling on the second/third combo trying to damage them down.
    image
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    While the resonance mechanic is not my favorite in Imperian (in terms of how it works out), I don't think the solutions to Bards problems will be effectively solved just by simply raising the ceiling. In fact, I'm not sure if Bard really does have big problems. It reminds me of Gurn's solution to Hunter with asking for a 4th trigger when in fact Hunter's trigger mechanics needed to be toned down. In intelligent, like Summoner, you will have trouble damaging down high health targets in one on one situations against a smart opponent but you will do very well in teams. In fast, you have more options open to you offensively, especially on the 1v1 front, though you will die quicker in team situations. You only play Intelligent Bard yet you're expecting it to mow down every situation.

    If you remove the condition that We damage is boosted by the the number of voice afflictions present on a target and have it go back to the general We boosted damage it did in the Beta (liked I suggested and you agreed would be better), you wouldn't need to do anything with Varaye. Also, Varaye shouldn't be that hard to apply, but I would remove this nonsense of each point of resonance removes 3 seconds of the duration of Varaye because when you want to use Varaye is when your target has lots of resonance on him/her.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014

    If you raise the cap and split the cap, the cap might as well not even be there in most group fights.

    The other problem is that resonance is designed to be a thing you take into consideration. This is why words like Kiyan, Daemos, and Yoth are affected by resonance; you should be considering what you spend the resonance on instead of applying it to every combo and only having it affected only by the words you want it to affect. 

    All that aside, when looking at the damage that Bards output, I have to say that asking for buffs is really just a little bit ridiculous. (Splitting resonance to be tracked invidually excepted).

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know much about Bard. Can you tabulate some eq times/resonance values?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KalonKalon Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    It seems to me that one solution to the resonance tracking problem is that resonance could be tracked on each bard, not on the target. Normally the objection to systems like this is that they encourage people to spam non-damaging attacks against allies before the fight so they can walk in with a full tank and steamroll the first wave of competition (see: druid earthquake, kai shenanigans). However... that doesn't really apply here, since bards start with "full" resonance anyway, and have their offense slow down as they hit the cap. Having spent resonance transfer from target to target would make resonance consumption more meaningful in group fights, because it would mean that a group of four bards couldn't spam all their most damaging attacks against target A, then switch to target B and repeat as each falls before they have a chance to counter that initial push.


    But then... I have a pretty bad track record with balance suggestions, so I think I will probably bow out of this conversation and leave the debate to those who have a real Excel license instead of this LibreOffice knockoff.
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Iniar said:
    I don't know much about Bard. Can you tabulate some eq times/resonance values?
    I don't have any numbers on Bard but I do have two logs of me fighting against Mathiaus.


  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting, you assumed Therapeutics cured healthleech over impatience in that second fight.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    I can track impatience cured if someone focuses but there's no other way for me to track healthleech cured so for now I've set it pretty high on the cured priority list.

    edit:

    Mathiaus concentrates briefly on a sketch of a Hunter.
    A sketch of a Hunter rumbles ominously and splashes flame across your body, leaving your skin reddened
    and blistered.
    Damage Taken: 48 fire, mental (raw damage: 80) -48 fire, mental
    You are overcome with pain as Mathiaus's voice reverberates inside your head.
    Damage Taken: 56 magickal (raw damage: 62) -56 magickal
    Pain floods you as the power of the We note strikes you.
    Damage Taken: 82 magickal (raw damage: 91) -82 magickal
    Mathiaus's voice tears into your organs, causing you to double over in severe pain.
    Damage Taken: 46 magickal (raw damage: 52) -46 magickal
    Pain floods you as the power of the We note strikes you.
    Damage Taken: 82 magickal (raw damage: 91) -82 magickal
    H:95(20%) M:558(96%) <e-> 0 8 0 [-315h/0m] AFF:2 MENT:0 Mark: Cadmus

    God that was painful.
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    This is what I usually set up.

    Words/Songs/Sketches Eq Time Resonance
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    sketchlink/bedazzlement 4.02s 0
    sketchlink/revelation 4.02s 0
    sketchlink/dissonance 4.02s 0
    sketchlink/yoth/nuarinyu 2.32s 0
    ta myried/innyo 2.32s                                      2
    (myried flare)sketchlink/ta innyo/nuarinyu 2.32s 4
    cruel lament 2.75s 4
    sketchlink/yoth/nuarinyu 2.32s -4(tick occurs here)
    ta myried/innyo 2.32s 2
    (myried flare)sketchlink/ta innyo/nuarinyu 2.32s 4
    ta innyo/nuarinyu 2.32s 6
    sketchlink/ta we ?(yoth)?shaite/rubait 3.60s 12
    sketchlink/(ta|we) ?(yoth)?shaite/rubait 3.60s 14-20

    Last one depends on yoth, shield, prismatic, etc. Usually reaches max resonance within 2-3 combos when I start damaging. I reset with disharmony when needed, and attempt to loop through when I can. I can normally stack 3-4 afflictions before damage, knocking out about half their health with the main ta we combo, but using We for damage after the first initial hit is useless, hence why we should switch back to how it was in beta like Iluv suggested. It'd basically reach resonance faster, but the damage output would help even that out, and give a chance for it actually compensate well with cruel lament damage boost.

    As well, I have to switch around innyo with kiyan and put nuarinyu with myried when the target has recklessness immunity, which slows me down quite a bit but I can still stack around 2-3 afflictions, enough to place cruel lament.

    Forgot to mention as well that I use Author specialization, which means my sketch balance returns in 3.8s. I normally wait for it before each damage combo for the extra 50-60 damage.

    I'm not entirely sure if that's what you wanted @Iniar. Let me know if you need more information and I'll be glad to assist you.

    In group combat I don't have much since there are hardly bards that fight anymore, but when they did it was just a cluster. It honestly could be managed well if we sat somewhere and discussed/coded it in, but I haven't met many other bards who code super well for such things.
    Post edited by Mathiaus on
    image
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    Note        | Eq   |                   |                   
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Nuarinyu    | 2.20 | Afflictions:      | Smart afflictions
                       |   Anorexia        |
                       |   Dizziness       |
                       |   Loneliness      |
                       |   Vertigo         |
                       |   Stupidity       |
                       |   Claustrophobia  |
                       |   Shivering       |
                       |   Masochism       |
                       |   Nausea          |
    Kiyan       | 2.20 | Peace             |
    Innyo       | 2.20 | Recklessness      | If recklessness, then confusion
    Oyiem       | 3.20 | Transfer aff      | Random
    Yoth        | 2.20 | Deaf- / No deaf   | 7 seconds
    Karinyu     | 2.20 | Diagnose other    |
    Myried      | 2.20 | Relapse PW @3s    | Uses Myried's enhancements
    Kantae      | 2.20 | 8s channeled insta| Requires undeaf
    Llan        | 3.20 | Heal              | Works even if deaf
    Daemos      | 2.70 | Shield down       | 2.20 eq failure
    Rubait      | 2.70 | Damage            | 2.20 eq failure
    Shaite      | 3.70 | Damage            |
    Kawis       | 2.20 | Lev- / Prone      |
    Varaye      | 3.20 | +50% resonance cap| 30 + (hp-80)*-2 + aff*5 + resonance*-3, min 3

    Arinyu      | 2.20 | Heal affliction   | ? Internal cooldown
    Mellaon     | 2.20 | Sleep             |
    Luos        | 3.20 | Light             |
    Nuluos      | 3.20 | Darkness          |
    Briah       | 3.20 | Forced movement   | Blocked by mass
    Ravsafa     | 2.20 | All languages     | 27 mana / 5s
    Iluma       | 3.20 | Locate item       |
    Chamine     | 4.20 | -vibe/rune/rite   | ? success rates
    Hukui       | 5.20 | Mimic voice       |
    Irayana     | 3.20 | Plant stuff       |
    Ka          | 1.20 | Locate            | Requires <target>
    Uryem       | ?    | ? Room wide PW    |
    Zriku       | ?    | ? project PW      |
    Paryes      | 3.70 | Forced tattoo     | Doesn't change tree cooldown
    Gyin        | 4.20 | Command           | Stopped by deaf

    3.70 base + anything | 4.20 |
    3.20 base + anything | 3.70 |
    2.20 base + anything | 2.70 |

    Resonance notes
    ===============
    Chi : -20% eq cost 
    We : bypass deaf, OR if cruel lament + undeaf, +damage * voice affs
    Ta : 
       Shaite/Rubait - increased damage
       Kawis - bypass levitation (prone)
       Llan - more health
       Nuarinyu - 2 afflictions, not 1
       Oyiem - 2 afflictions transferred
       Innyo - if reckless, +impatience, +confusion

    Cap = 20, 24 if Singer, raised by Varaye (30 + (hp-80)*-2 + aff*5 + resonance*-3, min 3)
    Each enhancement = +1
    Max 2 enhancements per cast
    Max resonance gain per cast = 6
    Natural decay rate = 0.8/s, Notes reset 5s timer!

    Song          | Eq    | Effect                    | Cycle | Est. Duration
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Revelation    | 4.70  | Strips blind+deaf         |  8 s  | 3 minutes
    Dissonance    | 4.70  | Damage every 6s           |  6 s  | 90 seconds
    Feign         | 1.20  | Illusion
    Lullaby       | 4.70  | Strips insomnia/quince    | 12 s  | 130 seconds
    Juggle        | 1.20b | Up to 3 juggled items
    Cruel Lament  | 3.20  | Increases Shaite/Rubait   |       | 5s minimum ?formula
    Bedazzlement  | 4.70  | Numbness/Dizziness, Transfix only if undeaf, 3 ticks

    Therapeutics  | 3.20  | Cures afflictions         |       | 4 minutes
    Restoration   | 3.20  | Heals                     | 17 s  | 
    Earthquake    | 4.70  | Prone, disrupt stonewalls, ?levitation
    Geis          | 4.70  | Rebinds songs on death    |
    Insightful. Very messy formula for Varaye. Un-diademed times.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That Varaye formula is very messy. Unless I am mistaken you forgot to note that resonance gain is adjusted when you use multiple modifiers.

    I like seeing it all out in front of me. You should include Artistry.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not enough credits for Artistry :D sponsor me :D
    Yeah I don't know what the gain is for multiple modifiers, will find out.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tbh, I always figured Mathiaus was just fkn with us. But today, man, he proved me way wrong.


    ab thespia circles
    Thespia - Circles
    Usage CHOOSE CIRCLE <circle>
    There are six different circles you may select from. You may choose a new circle after 24 months.
    AUTHOR
    Authors can use sketch abilities 20% faster.  <--(I cannot see how this is remotely good)
    ARTIST
    Artists will enjoy crafting 20% faster than other bards.
    DANCER
    Dancers will recieve an additional +1 dexterity when using Befuddle.
    MUSICIAN
    Musician's songs will last 10% longer.
    SINGER
    Singers will resonate better with the primordial notes, increasing the maximum possible resonance by 20%.  <-- (This reads like a bad classlead idea I read)
    ACTOR
    Actors can TRUEFEIGN anyone they are currently mimicing. This has a significant mana, willpower and endurace drain. For example, if you are mimicing Baar and do TRUEFEIGN KICK JANUS, it would look as if Baar has kicked Janus, when in fact (no one cares)

    We were going to bicker an argue about resonance when it's already built into the god damn skillset. 
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2014
    Remind me never to try and affliction kill a bard. Or physical damage it. (Oh he uses Author :( )
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Passive affliction healing (all forms) is too fast. While passive affliction healing should give you some what of an edge, you shouldn't be able to outpace afflicting just by turning on a skill and forgetting about it.
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    At least, rite of healing needs to be owner only. Same with revitalization.
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wasn't talking about passive affliction healing. (Though you're right) Ta Oyiem sounds insane. (Don't try and nerf it yet let me play with my bard first kthnx)
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    Thought bards lost passive affliction healing from songbirds?? Are those affs actually transferred or just mirrored?
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Unsure. Mathiaus?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They still have Therapeutics song. Theory crafting here. If I had 6 affs on me...

    Ta myried oyiem
    Oyiem kiyan
    Ta oyiem nuarinyu

    7.64 s, 10 afflictions nyahahaha
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    The only passive way is therapeutics and the only manual way is normal healing. The only exception is arinyu, which had an incredibly long cooldown. Oyiem afflicts, it does not cure.

    4 resonance difference with singer specialization against 50-60 extra damage per damage combo, especially since it aids greatly in the lower health boost damage in shaite and rubait when cruel lament it's active scenario. 4 resonance is not justifiable enough to lose out on the damage output.
    image
  • AhkanAhkan Member Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but the problem is you want to classlead raising the resonance cieling because you want that 50-60 delayed damage boost instead of picking up singer spec. You want to have your cake and eat it too.
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's the cooldown on Arinyu Math?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • MathiausMathiaus Member Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    Iniar said:

    What's the cooldown on Arinyu Math?

    Will have to check but 10s if I remember correctly.

    image
  • EoghanEoghan Member, Immortal Posts: 1,073 mod
    Arinyu has a per-target cooldown of 20 seconds.
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