That is part of my concern, tbh. There DO seem to be rules, because there are Professional Issue Lawyers. The problem is, you have to be a Fox to really be a good issues lawyer, and I am a probably more of a Hen if we're being honest. In fact, most people who would ever issue are Hens and that is probably why they mostly cluck cluck scratch their way into losing issues - even the ones that might actually pass muster if they were properly written, I mean. First, because they didn't know whether they had a strong enough basis in the first place, and even if they did, there is definitely an art to writing issues.
EDIT: basically, I think it would be amazing if we could all be savvier about issues, so that we don't bother submitting issues that don't have a chance in hell, for starters, but that would mean more explanation of the thinking behind them.
EDIT2: I'd have to think really hard about how you'd attempt the IC resolution, because most people seem to consider any sort of response at all (especially anything that boils down to "what was that all about") whining, or an insult, basically (which is why I think we're all told to stay silent generally). I guess you have two choices, really. Stay silent if you think they're not going to continue escalating (this has definitely been the best policy up until now) or ask them why they're jumping you (the hard part there I think is actually making it sound non-confrontational).
It's a good idea to send that tell regardless, because most of the time the conversation goes something like this:
Them: "What was that for? You'd better have a good reason or I'm going to issue you." Me: "You attacked me yesterday. There were three of you and I was by myself." Them: Wait, you can attack me for that?!" Me: "... Yes."
Yeah, true. I have had that conversation from the other side... I think it's unlikely I'd forget/not catch most of those, because I've been around enough PK to have some sense of that stuff.
I just know that saying ANYTHING to your attacker is very, very much frowned upon, even if it's pretty innocuous. It was drilled into my head early on, and it actually has proven to usually be the best policy - it's just not going to be a good policy if it's something where you've got the impression you're sort of going to keep getting "picked at". I'd definitely try not send the opening tell with a threat to issue, which is a common mistake people make when they're hot (even if I felt it might end up going down that road), of course.
If you create a system of rules for Issues, you can and will see them abused. This essentially happened in Aetolia a lot when I played there, because the admin would try to follow "precedents" and as such essentially created an informal code as to what was acceptable that some very, VERY griefy people abused to the detriment of the game, and is in fact why I retired my main on Aet. This is part of the reason I don't understand people complaining about griefiness in Imperian. No one has even come close to how bad some people were on Aetolia when I played. Not gonna name names, but they know who they are, and just because they were on "my" side doesn't make their behaviour acceptable.
@Kiskan - basically, if you egg on your attacker, they're just going to say that you incited them to kick your stuff in. It's better to take the one death and just move on, god knows its what I've done. But if someone keeps coming after you for absolutely no reason, you should try to do something to resolve it. It's worth noting that it doesn't have to be the person themselves, either. When I had a lot of problems with certain people giving Anette grief, I laid it at the city council's feet and the problem sorted itself out, as I think you know since you were tangentially involved in it.
Unless that person's a rogue, there's always other avenues - their guild, their city, their sect, etc. People are usually pretty understanding of "I don't want to continue to speak to them myself because it could be seen as me trying to egg them on" - which is something I know from firsthand experience. But you should at least try SOMETHING IC before you escalate unless the issue is particularly dire.
We definitely have an informal code already - most people just don't know much about it unless they've been issued a LOT themselves (valid or not). So if most of us try to write issues, I am pretty sure we are pretty terrible at it, especially when we are considering being the one doing the issuing, rather than defending ourselves from an issue. But let's be honest, we're going to be terrible at both - because the rules are actually incredibly detailed and nuanced.
Perhaps instead of trying to find ways to talk yourself out of doing things, you should just do them anyways. Being doom and gloom about everything only becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
EDIT2: I'd have to think really hard about how you'd attempt the IC resolution, because most people seem to consider any sort of response at all (especially anything that boils down to "what was that all about") whining, or an insult, basically (which is why I think we're all told to stay silent generally).
EDIT2: I'd have to think really hard about how you'd attempt the IC resolution, because most people seem to consider any sort of response at all (especially anything that boils down to "what was that all about") whining, or an insult, basically (which is why I think we're all told to stay silent generally).
"Why did you kill me?" is a pretty solid start.
Probably the best start. The first rule of PKing is that the person being attacked has to know WHY they're being attacked. Not answering that question, even if the answer is obvious, is not going to do you (as the attacker) any favours. There are some pretty clueless people out there.
The first rule of PKing is that the person being attacked has to know WHY they're being attacked.
Not in Imperian.
In Achaea, they have to be aware of the conflict before you gank them. In Imperian there's no such rule and you can just go after them. I much prefer this way because it's much easier to kill somebody when they're not expecting it.
The first rule of PKing is that the person being attacked has to know WHY they're being attacked.
Not in Imperian.
In Achaea, they have to be aware of the conflict before you gank them. In Imperian there's no such rule and you can just go after them. I much prefer this way because it's much easier to kill somebody when they're not expecting it.
You DO have to have a reason, though, which they should be able to provide if prodded. They can't just go out and smack you down for wearing white after Labour day.
I have a feeling a "single death" criteria is fairly low. It doesn't have to meet whatever the "normal" standards are because it's a single death and you can't issue for it anyway. It has to be something that would sort of almost pass if you issue them after they do it enough times. But that bar isn't particularly high. I saw a guy get killed for making a really benign joke about someone's glasses, and that is a perfectly valid reason for PK. That was my first lesson in "shut the hell up around PK-ers that are better than you and have unpredictable temperaments" - and that's one of the big reasons you do want to minimize interaction with people you don't trust, even if you do need to ask why they're killing you after the fact. Now, how often they can kill you "one time"? I have no idea. But I am pretty sure the answer is "sometimes".
I don't think you even have to interact with them really. They could be mad at you for something that happened at a shardfall. In theory those are Free PK, but let's say they felt your team didn't fight honorably (for any number of reasons). I think they can at least possibly single PK you for that. And if you miss a lust, and they pull you into a 6 man gank after or even between shardfall fights, that's pretty much just tradition. If you're bashing, they could come in and tell you to leave. If you don't leave, they can't quite just kill you (maybe), but what they can do is start bashing on top of you. If you don't like it or you hit something they were hitting first, they can kill you (your smart bet is to leave).
Someone like me with an incredibly valuable character and a lack of expertise in PK-lawyering isn't going to want to test any of these things out even if I could - I do know enough, and have seen enough to know that all of those things have happened, somewhat rarely, but I think now there might be more reason to do them. I also know that there are people who know pretty much exactly where those lines are, and they are mostly people who are very, very good at killing people. There is a LOT of wiggle room in the rules, I am pretty sure. You can do a lot, I am just not quite sure how much.
Man, I hate those "Why did you kill me?" questions. Generally, these people have played the game longer then I have and still have little-to-zero awareness about the world their characters inhabit. I generally ignore and let them issue me. I then lawyer them into oblivion. Except the time I got leafy.
Man, I hate those "Why did you kill me?" questions. Generally, these people have played the game longer then I have and still have little-to-zero awareness about the world their characters inhabit. I generally ignore and let them issue me. I then lawyer them into oblivion. Except the time I got leafy.
The defense rests.
Right? This is what I am scared of with that part of all this for sure, and what I was getting at in some of my posts once Kyraic clarified that that rule is hard and fast on admin's end. If I get into a bad situation with the new state of things, the culture of Imperian is going to pretty much slam me for doing that, but the rules are absolutely demanding it. I am not liking the tension between those two demands - "game culture" on one side, directly in opposition with a rule that is trying to lay a different ground rule for that EXACT aspect of the game. I don't see that ending well for the person who's in the tough spot, tbh.
You don't necessarily have to talk to the other player. Especially if you really, really don't like them.
If you feel like you are being killed too often by a player or group of players then go ahead and issue and we will take a look. Keep in mind, we review your communication with those players which is usually the main problem.
If you are insulting another player, we are going to let them kill you. I cannot tell you how many people get killed, issue the player, then go insult them so more and get killed again. We just instantly dismiss that.
STICK TO THE FACTS! Some people write essays about how they are depressed because their mom called them and they were sick and that is why they insulted the other player so they should have no reason to kill me. All of that is a waste of time. A short, concise statements of FACT goes a long way.
For example.
"JoeBob killed me while I was standing in my city. I had not had any interaction with him for several real days. I do not think he had a valid reason to kill me."
That is a good issue and very easy for us to investigate.
Do not issue an essay.
If you find yourself needing to explain something you said to them and how they should not take offence to it or if you find yourself writing 10 or more sentences to explain why they do not have a reason to kill you, then it is going to be much harder to find us siding with you on an issue. Typically those issue have several attacks, deaths, and/or insults that have gone back and forth over the course of many weeks.
Even worse is the reissue after the other player responds to issue.
In those cases, if you just want to be done with it, you just have to stop talking to them, probably get killed a few more time, suck it up and not try to kill or insult them later. If you do this, and they keep killing you, then =you should do an issue like this.
"2 weeks ago I completely stopped retaliating and communicating with JoeBob. He has killed me 7 times since then and that is going beyond what I would consider acceptable."
That is all you need. In cases like that we will tell the other player to knock it off (unless the logs tell us you are lying), and if they attack you again after that, without provocation, we will come down on them.
Do not issue people for things you always do yourself.
We used to have a player that would cuss and swear big time at everyone in the game and then issue anyone that said the smallest thing to them. I really have no patience for that. If you run around jumping other players and then issue because someone jumps you, you will find little compassion for your cause. Typically I will just warn both sides and that's it.
Another thing you should always do before issuing. Wait an hour. Take a deep breath.
It's a game.
Maybe this is a chance to stew and look for revenge or plot an attack back or pay someone to kill them or anything like that.
Jeremy what about the sorts of scenarios I mentioned? The scenarios you mention I've never had a problem with (and don't foresee becoming a problem now) - they're pretty avoidable.
I don't so much mean the glasses joke one - that's easily avoided as soon as you understand, and is basically something someone can take as an insult if they choose to. I mean more like... sort of extending the PK after/between shardfall skirmishes, or ganking with lust between/after shardfall skirmishes, the bashing type stuff - even coming in while people are doing honours mobs. Those are the ones that come to mind right now, but you probably know more.
EDIT: it's definitely helpful to know that I don't necessarily have to talk to them btw... Even if I don't "hate" them, like Iniar said, it's just not part of Imperian's game culture to talk to an attacker. That's good.
If someone yanks you into a shardfall our logs very easily see that. If a fight starts during a shardfall, you leave, and then are killed, our logs clearly show that.
Those issues rarely popup and are the easiest for us to figure out.
If someone is breaking shardfall rules, and they have no other reason to be killing you, then issue it.
We rarely have shardfall issues.
Shardfalls are one of the few, fast rules for PK. It rarely gets broken.
We keep things open and try to rely on the 'Don't be a jerk' rule, as there's a million different ways things can go down in the game and it is impossible to try to make a 'rule' for every situation.
That helps quite a bit, thanks. That said, they CAN gank once... I think? Because it is a single death? Still not sure how often... but your example above helps somewhat. I have feeling they would have to gank like... a LOT, right, for me to consider it issue worthy? I mean... like 5-10 deaths in a relatively short period (like a week or two).
if you are doing nothing to them and they kill you 5-10 times in a week, that is beyond what would allow. Once a month would be passable. Unless you are provoking someone, they should not really just be killing you.
If someone yanks you into a shardfall our logs very easily see that. If a fight starts during a shardfall, you leave, and then are killed, our logs clearly show that.
I think one thing a lot of people who act out don't realize is that pretty much everything that can have an impact on someone other than yourself is logged to some degree, and many things that don't are too.
A lot of the time, the griefy people rely on people to either:
A: Be goaded into saying or doing something that "justifies" their attacks/harassment/kills postmorten, or
B: They don't but they don't also issue so they become door mats.
It's the basic bullying behaviour, really, but if they know you push back, in ways that they cannot exploit, they're less likely to go after you. The people who used to harass Anette disappeared when I dealt with it in a calm fashion, and they usually do, in my many years of experience. Sometimes they just go pick on someone else, which can be frustrating, but that gets into how I was saying earlier this month or perhaps last that we as a community do have some responsibility to nurture an environment that curbs this kind of thing.
I think one thing a lot of people who act out don't realize is that pretty much everything that can have an impact on someone other than yourself is logged to some degree, and many things that don't are too.
I think a lot of people do, but it's also been stated that very few of the admin actually have access to read those logs. And they only ever do, when issues arise where they need to be looked at.
(Pre-emptive sorry, if this comes off as kinda... Aggressive. I'm genuinely curious) What exactly are you asking to be curbed? People who goad others? - People who respond in snarky / dickish manners, being allowed to be killed for it? - Neither really fall under 'griefer status' and are generally used because they're an easy way to start conflict, in a game that sorely needs an outlet for it. If someone is genuinely harassing you though, SNUB them and hope they get the hint (or issue depending on the nature of it).
The thing is, you don't even have to interact with someone to be fair game, basically, and there is actually quite a lot of wiggle room for people to just mess with you with the "single death" portion of the rules if they're at all smart about it - and any good PK rules lawyer is. If you don't respond to goading, they can still just kill if they really want to - "sometimes" (and we have sort of a window of how often that is here - they have that window narrowed down even further, believe me). They don't need any real justification. And it's never really a single death... it's a single death "right now". It probably would have been fairly rough in Aetolia, because as I understand it they still have a more old school, harsh, XP loss mechanic than other IRE games. So each death has quite a sting, likely. That's pretty much why I had a lot of the questions I did (and Jeremy did give some good answers I was looking for that give an idea of what you might be up against).
If you can't beat them, you're probably stuck. And it's often guys who will be from like, a PK juggernaut, attacking people from whatever the new Cyrene is (I do think we'll end up with a Cyrene now). In my experience, it was always nearly impossible to find people to counter-grief a griefer, because those guys would usually be in the same org, or they'd just be buddies if they weren't. We have Septus here, who seems to relish counter-griefing, but that's fairly rare. Because another unwritten rule is "you don't grief fellow griefers" - you grief the non-coms, and people who aren't part of the elite tier of fighters, or friends with that group of people. People who can't fight back.
Also, if they DO fight back, you can punish them for that, too. Like, I am magick now. So, one problem with the advice in HELP ISSUES about IC resolution is say, one of us keeps getting ganked (it's usually your power bashers). I decide to go help out Alvetta - which is what the rules recommend. That guy can now kill me for helping my friend, even though he's been jumping her exactly as much as he thinks he can get away with for the past month. He can also put me on his list of people to randomly jump every once in awhile - even if I never talk to him.
And circling back to the "don't respond to goading". If you're generally able to regulate yourself, it's pretty easy to sidestep that. It's never been a problem for me. But if someone has killed you "exactly as much as they think they can get away with" for awhile, I am sure that gets harder for people. I have never used SNUB, though. I don't think SNUB is usually a good idea. I think it's better to just remain silent, and if they say "being silent was disrespectful" eh, I do think they're going to have a hard time with that, and IC resolution attempt doesn't necessarily mean talking to the attacker at all. The problem with SNUB is I'm pretty sure it's exactly one of the buttons a griefer wants to push. It pretty much feels like "Achievement Unlocked" to them, I think. I've never used it in any game. The best thing I can think of to try, if someone is really an **** about it, is something I normally wouldn't recommend - just stand there when they go for the kill (if you can't escape), and then obviously don't react in general. Because that's probably what they hate most. There's only so many times you can say "man, she just stood there" in ring. It's not a good story. And a lot of griefing is having a story to tell.
1. Use reasonable judgment. This goes in line with @Jeremy's statement of "Don't be a jerk." Remove yourself from the situation (and the game) if you need to in order to gain some distance from the immediate issue.
2. There is a reason why certain people get jumped repeatedly, whether it be a function of them holding a monolith, champion status, assassin contract out on them, having a mouth, etc. Don't let whatever that reason is become your problem. (And if you do make it your problem, then that's on you.)
3. For mudlet users, deleteLine() is a beautiful thing. Why snub when you can just deleteLine() and silently discard?
1. Use reasonable judgment. This goes in line with @Jeremy's statement of "Don't be a jerk." Remove yourself from the situation (and the game) if you need to in order to gain some distance from the immediate issue.
2. There is a reason why certain people get jumped repeatedly, whether it be a function of them holding a monolith, champion status, assassin contract out on them, having a mouth, etc. Don't let whatever that reason is become your problem. (And if you do make it your problem, then that's on you.)
3. For mudlet users, deleteLine() is a beautiful thing. Why snub when you can just deleteLine() and silently discard?
Snubbing makes it clear to the admin you just don't want to deal with that person, swhy :v If they try to get around a snub they've pretty much instantly made themselves issue-able.
1. Use reasonable judgment. This goes in line with @Jeremy's statement of "Don't be a jerk." Remove yourself from the situation (and the game) if you need to in order to gain some distance from the immediate issue.
2. There is a reason why certain people get jumped repeatedly, whether it be a function of them holding a monolith, champion status, assassin contract out on them, having a mouth, etc. Don't let whatever that reason is become your problem. (And if you do make it your problem, then that's on you.)
3. For mudlet users, deleteLine() is a beautiful thing. Why snub when you can just deleteLine() and silently discard?
Snubbing makes it clear to the admin you just don't want to deal with that person, swhy :v If they try to get around a snub they've pretty much instantly made themselves issue-able.
If they're smart, they'll just find a way to kill you anyway. I am pretty sure snub is for something like... someone is sending you some of the very, very clearcut things Kyraic mentioned. Racial epithets, slurs... things that have actual legal consequences in our society, actually. Otherwise? I think it's a bit of a trap. It's a trap in the way I already mentioned (Griefer Achievement Unlocked), but it's also going to prevent you from collecting possibly incriminating behavior, and will possibly just reflect poorly on you in the eyes of admin if things do eventually go to an issue. The ONLY sort of person I might do it to, is someone who has very, very poor emotional regulation themselves, and that is definitely not a griefer worthy of the name (at least not while they sit in a the power position of "I can kill you at will").
I agree with Ultrix, those are common sense things and they'll generally help a lot, but people aren't actually restricted to honoring that. The rules allow... more, basically. And now, even if you don't react outwardly, the griefer knows they're getting a deep emotional response - because there isn't a player alive that doesn't care deeply about losing something tangible.
Juran is right that snub can be good for people who've got to the point where they just can't control themselves, but it's still very sub-optimal. You don't want to be there if you can avoid it.
I did have a couple more thoughts about dealing with potential problems. If your sect has the Grace ritual - you can use that as part of your escape repertoire. I used to think the Grace ritual was a bit lame for even existing. You should DEFINITELY get it and use it if you end up having problems though.
You can also call for a portal target, if you have access to something like that. Pilgrimage and stuff like that would be dicier against a competent griefer because they probably just won't work. In some IRE games, the portal target can be killed for helping you out, but while they can and will still probably be targeted, I don't think it's an actual justification here.
Also, you could always justify your silence by saying "my character is too afraid to speak/talk back", I think, if your attacker tried to say that you are being disrespectful by not responding to says/tells etc... and that that was why they were killing you. You really don't want to get into conversations with someone like that - it's a minefield for you, and they want you to walk into it. Admin seems to understand that (I hope they do), and will allow you to keep mum without allowing the other party to use that, too, as a justification for kills.
Your issue could maybe look something like:
"BillBob killed me x times in the past x (*just remember, a griefer probably knows how often they can get away with this better than you do). I have not interacted with him in any way, although I did fight in a shardfall we both attended. He sends me tells trying to goad me into fighting him, but I make it a point not to respond to goading as I know it will probably get me in even more trouble. I hired an assassin on BillBob and tried to get a group together to kill him, but no luck. Thank you for considering my issue".
Again, I have never issued anyone, but I do want to be able to do it RIGHT if I have to, so that would be my stab at it.
Comments
EDIT: basically, I think it would be amazing if we could all be savvier about issues, so that we don't bother submitting issues that don't have a chance in hell, for starters, but that would mean more explanation of the thinking behind them.
EDIT2: I'd have to think really hard about how you'd attempt the IC resolution, because most people seem to consider any sort of response at all (especially anything that boils down to "what was that all about") whining, or an insult, basically (which is why I think we're all told to stay silent generally). I guess you have two choices, really. Stay silent if you think they're not going to continue escalating (this has definitely been the best policy up until now) or ask them why they're jumping you (the hard part there I think is actually making it sound non-confrontational).
Them: "What was that for? You'd better have a good reason or I'm going to issue you."
Me: "You attacked me yesterday. There were three of you and I was by myself."
Them: Wait, you can attack me for that?!"
Me: "... Yes."
I just know that saying ANYTHING to your attacker is very, very much frowned upon, even if it's pretty innocuous. It was drilled into my head early on, and it actually has proven to usually be the best policy - it's just not going to be a good policy if it's something where you've got the impression you're sort of going to keep getting "picked at". I'd definitely try not send the opening tell with a threat to issue, which is a common mistake people make when they're hot (even if I felt it might end up going down that road), of course.
@Kiskan - basically, if you egg on your attacker, they're just going to say that you incited them to kick your stuff in. It's better to take the one death and just move on, god knows its what I've done. But if someone keeps coming after you for absolutely no reason, you should try to do something to resolve it. It's worth noting that it doesn't have to be the person themselves, either. When I had a lot of problems with certain people giving Anette grief, I laid it at the city council's feet and the problem sorted itself out, as I think you know since you were tangentially involved in it.
Unless that person's a rogue, there's always other avenues - their guild, their city, their sect, etc. People are usually pretty understanding of "I don't want to continue to speak to them myself because it could be seen as me trying to egg them on" - which is something I know from firsthand experience. But you should at least try SOMETHING IC before you escalate unless the issue is particularly dire.
In Achaea, they have to be aware of the conflict before you gank them. In Imperian there's no such rule and you can just go after them. I much prefer this way because it's much easier to kill somebody when they're not expecting it.
I don't think you even have to interact with them really. They could be mad at you for something that happened at a shardfall. In theory those are Free PK, but let's say they felt your team didn't fight honorably (for any number of reasons). I think they can at least possibly single PK you for that. And if you miss a lust, and they pull you into a 6 man gank after or even between shardfall fights, that's pretty much just tradition. If you're bashing, they could come in and tell you to leave. If you don't leave, they can't quite just kill you (maybe), but what they can do is start bashing on top of you. If you don't like it or you hit something they were hitting first, they can kill you (your smart bet is to leave).
Someone like me with an incredibly valuable character and a lack of expertise in PK-lawyering isn't going to want to test any of these things out even if I could - I do know enough, and have seen enough to know that all of those things have happened, somewhat rarely, but I think now there might be more reason to do them. I also know that there are people who know pretty much exactly where those lines are, and they are mostly people who are very, very good at killing people. There is a LOT of wiggle room in the rules, I am pretty sure. You can do a lot, I am just not quite sure how much.
The defense rests.
If you feel like you are being killed too often by a player or group of players then go ahead and issue and we will take a look. Keep in mind, we review your communication with those players which is usually the main problem.
If you are insulting another player, we are going to let them kill you. I cannot tell you how many people get killed, issue the player, then go insult them so more and get killed again. We just instantly dismiss that.
STICK TO THE FACTS! Some people write essays about how they are depressed because their mom called them and they were sick and that is why they insulted the other player so they should have no reason to kill me. All of that is a waste of time. A short, concise statements of FACT goes a long way.
For example.
"JoeBob killed me while I was standing in my city. I had not had any interaction with him for several real days. I do not think he had a valid reason to kill me."
That is a good issue and very easy for us to investigate.
Do not issue an essay.
If you find yourself needing to explain something you said to them and how they should not take offence to it or if you find yourself writing 10 or more sentences to explain why they do not have a reason to kill you, then it is going to be much harder to find us siding with you on an issue. Typically those issue have several attacks, deaths, and/or insults that have gone back and forth over the course of many weeks.
Even worse is the reissue after the other player responds to issue.
In those cases, if you just want to be done with it, you just have to stop talking to them, probably get killed a few more time, suck it up and not try to kill or insult them later. If you do this, and they keep killing you, then =you should do an issue like this.
"2 weeks ago I completely stopped retaliating and communicating with JoeBob. He has killed me 7 times since then and that is going beyond what I would consider acceptable."
That is all you need. In cases like that we will tell the other player to knock it off (unless the logs tell us you are lying), and if they attack you again after that, without provocation, we will come down on them.
Do not issue people for things you always do yourself.
We used to have a player that would cuss and swear big time at everyone in the game and then issue anyone that said the smallest thing to them. I really have no patience for that. If you run around jumping other players and then issue because someone jumps you, you will find little compassion for your cause. Typically I will just warn both sides and that's it.
Another thing you should always do before issuing. Wait an hour. Take a deep breath.
It's a game.
Maybe this is a chance to stew and look for revenge or plot an attack back or pay someone to kill them or anything like that.
Hopefully that is more helpful then confusing.
I don't so much mean the glasses joke one - that's easily avoided as soon as you understand, and is basically something someone can take as an insult if they choose to. I mean more like... sort of extending the PK after/between shardfall skirmishes, or ganking with lust between/after shardfall skirmishes, the bashing type stuff - even coming in while people are doing honours mobs. Those are the ones that come to mind right now, but you probably know more.
EDIT: it's definitely helpful to know that I don't necessarily have to talk to them btw... Even if I don't "hate" them, like Iniar said, it's just not part of Imperian's game culture to talk to an attacker. That's good.
Those issues rarely popup and are the easiest for us to figure out.
If someone is breaking shardfall rules, and they have no other reason to be killing you, then issue it.
We rarely have shardfall issues.
Shardfalls are one of the few, fast rules for PK. It rarely gets broken.
We keep things open and try to rely on the 'Don't be a jerk' rule, as there's a million different ways things can go down in the game and it is impossible to try to make a 'rule' for every situation.
A lot of the time, the griefy people rely on people to either:
A: Be goaded into saying or doing something that "justifies" their attacks/harassment/kills postmorten, or
B: They don't but they don't also issue so they become door mats.
It's the basic bullying behaviour, really, but if they know you push back, in ways that they cannot exploit, they're less likely to go after you. The people who used to harass Anette disappeared when I dealt with it in a calm fashion, and they usually do, in my many years of experience. Sometimes they just go pick on someone else, which can be frustrating, but that gets into how I was saying earlier this month or perhaps last that we as a community do have some responsibility to nurture an environment that curbs this kind of thing.
(Pre-emptive sorry, if this comes off as kinda... Aggressive. I'm genuinely curious)
What exactly are you asking to be curbed? People who goad others? - People who respond in snarky / dickish manners, being allowed to be killed for it? - Neither really fall under 'griefer status' and are generally used because they're an easy way to start conflict, in a game that sorely needs an outlet for it.
If someone is genuinely harassing you though, SNUB them and hope they get the hint (or issue depending on the nature of it).
If you can't beat them, you're probably stuck. And it's often guys who will be from like, a PK juggernaut, attacking people from whatever the new Cyrene is (I do think we'll end up with a Cyrene now). In my experience, it was always nearly impossible to find people to counter-grief a griefer, because those guys would usually be in the same org, or they'd just be buddies if they weren't. We have Septus here, who seems to relish counter-griefing, but that's fairly rare. Because another unwritten rule is "you don't grief fellow griefers" - you grief the non-coms, and people who aren't part of the elite tier of fighters, or friends with that group of people. People who can't fight back.
Also, if they DO fight back, you can punish them for that, too. Like, I am magick now. So, one problem with the advice in HELP ISSUES about IC resolution is say, one of us keeps getting ganked (it's usually your power bashers). I decide to go help out Alvetta - which is what the rules recommend. That guy can now kill me for helping my friend, even though he's been jumping her exactly as much as he thinks he can get away with for the past month. He can also put me on his list of people to randomly jump every once in awhile - even if I never talk to him.
And circling back to the "don't respond to goading". If you're generally able to regulate yourself, it's pretty easy to sidestep that. It's never been a problem for me. But if someone has killed you "exactly as much as they think they can get away with" for awhile, I am sure that gets harder for people. I have never used SNUB, though. I don't think SNUB is usually a good idea. I think it's better to just remain silent, and if they say "being silent was disrespectful" eh, I do think they're going to have a hard time with that, and IC resolution attempt doesn't necessarily mean talking to the attacker at all. The problem with SNUB is I'm pretty sure it's exactly one of the buttons a griefer wants to push. It pretty much feels like "Achievement Unlocked" to them, I think. I've never used it in any game. The best thing I can think of to try, if someone is really an **** about it, is something I normally wouldn't recommend - just stand there when they go for the kill (if you can't escape), and then obviously don't react in general. Because that's probably what they hate most. There's only so many times you can say "man, she just stood there" in ring. It's not a good story. And a lot of griefing is having a story to tell.
1. Use reasonable judgment. This goes in line with @Jeremy's statement of "Don't be a jerk." Remove yourself from the situation (and the game) if you need to in order to gain some distance from the immediate issue.
2. There is a reason why certain people get jumped repeatedly, whether it be a function of them holding a monolith, champion status, assassin contract out on them, having a mouth, etc. Don't let whatever that reason is become your problem. (And if you do make it your problem, then that's on you.)
3. For mudlet users, deleteLine() is a beautiful thing. Why snub when you can just deleteLine() and silently discard?
I agree with Ultrix, those are common sense things and they'll generally help a lot, but people aren't actually restricted to honoring that. The rules allow... more, basically. And now, even if you don't react outwardly, the griefer knows they're getting a deep emotional response - because there isn't a player alive that doesn't care deeply about losing something tangible.
Juran is right that snub can be good for people who've got to the point where they just can't control themselves, but it's still very sub-optimal. You don't want to be there if you can avoid it.
I did have a couple more thoughts about dealing with potential problems. If your sect has the Grace ritual - you can use that as part of your escape repertoire. I used to think the Grace ritual was a bit lame for even existing. You should DEFINITELY get it and use it if you end up having problems though.
You can also call for a portal target, if you have access to something like that. Pilgrimage and stuff like that would be dicier against a competent griefer because they probably just won't work. In some IRE games, the portal target can be killed for helping you out, but while they can and will still probably be targeted, I don't think it's an actual justification here.
Also, you could always justify your silence by saying "my character is too afraid to speak/talk back", I think, if your attacker tried to say that you are being disrespectful by not responding to says/tells etc... and that that was why they were killing you. You really don't want to get into conversations with someone like that - it's a minefield for you, and they want you to walk into it. Admin seems to understand that (I hope they do), and will allow you to keep mum without allowing the other party to use that, too, as a justification for kills.
Your issue could maybe look something like:
"BillBob killed me x times in the past x (*just remember, a griefer probably knows how often they can get away with this better than you do). I have not interacted with him in any way, although I did fight in a shardfall we both attended. He sends me tells trying to goad me into fighting him, but I make it a point not to respond to goading as I know it will probably get me in even more trouble. I hired an assassin on BillBob and tried to get a group together to kill him, but no luck. Thank you for considering my issue".
Again, I have never issued anyone, but I do want to be able to do it RIGHT if I have to, so that would be my stab at it.
How do you get the quest progression hints to pop up? I have taskhints on, so it's not that, and I don't see anything in HELP QUESTS.
deleteLine() cecho("<green>Someone very unimportant has just been gagged! Isn't life wonderful? Have a good day.")Edit: its the little echoes in my system like this that makes my day so much better