Defiler's parry needs a heavy nerf. When i hit that as a pred I have 0 chance to survive. That's more damage than a bomb, and poison-type instead of fire so resists are even lower for it on average.
in this log i got hit with 267 raw poison damage just for hitting his parry. Defiler is a damage prof but this is insane.
Just a reminder that for a classlead to be considered, it must be submitted in game. I know that this is the classleads thread and all, and this is not directed towards anyone in particular, but please put your classleads into the system so everyone can find the ones that they are interested in and comment appropriately. Believe it or not, we've gone through these before where people complain on the forums and then never put something into the system in game. We do not want to force people to have to participate in forums and taking classlead ideas from the forums without going through the system would be unfair to those that don't.
Also, when providing proposed solutions please remember to 1) provide specific changes that you'd like to see and 2) provide real alternatives. Despite the fact that I tend to be the least visible admin in the game, I tend to do the most coding for these large projects. Vague solutions, if we end up implementing them, leave much to the imagination of the implementer. You do not want to leave anything up to my imagination. Just trust me on that. So if you want it done right, make your suggested changes detailed.
Along the same lines, if you only give one solution, your classlead may not be implemented despite being addressed to a legitimate problem. There are many reasons why a given solution may be unworkable, and there are limited resources to fixing things. If you provide only one solution and it's deemed unworkable we probably will just focus our resources elsewhere than trying to change your solution into something else. That's not to say we will never implement classleads with only one solution, but not that many problems have only one viable solution.
Finally, thank you for submitting the suggestions. I know it can be frustrating dealing with something that can seem like it really is broken. We want to improve things, but it's rare that there is consensus on a simple and good solution. So please, submit not just classleads, but also comments on them. There's no such thing as voting when it comes to these things, but solid comments on suggested changes from people on different sides of issues are a great help when trying to determine the best course of action.
Defiler's parry needs a heavy nerf. When i hit that as a pred I have 0 chance to survive. That's more damage than a bomb, and poison-type instead of fire so resists are even lower for it on average.
in this log i got hit with 267 raw poison damage just for hitting his parry. Defiler is a damage prof but this is insane.
Just got informed Defiler has damage ramp up based on entropy.
That... should not be, on a class with two burst options. A viable kill route (Ravage a lot) shouldn't work alongside a second viable kill route (get them below 400, pop), in that way.
As for some of the current classleads - 671 is terrible. That would ruin bard. It wouldn't 'tone down' their affliction path or just slow them down, it would make Bard useless. It also demonstrates an utter lack of understanding about what yoth does and the current duration. The duration is pretty short already and making it last "a few seconds if you leave room" would make no actual difference - if someone gets away, it's safe to assume yoth drops if they're out of the room for even a few seconds.
Report 673... Just no. Bard isn't a class with precise affliction control and nerfing their already limited aff pool would be disastrous, because the class relies on the affs it does have to stand any chance of surviving the enemy offense. These reports both seem to stem from the ridiculous idea that Bard and Defiler are somehow equivalent, when Bard has a limited window to finish a target before their offense resets, and loses most of their progress within 10~ seconds of an enemy getting out of the room or spam shielding.
EDIT:
Also no way in hell shaman should get ignorance. They don't need another powerful affliction. Shaman is strong, and having a (minor) vulnerability to non-physical damage is totally fine, especially considering AB SHAMANISM COVER used right can already patch over this weakness neatly.
Make bard and defiler for sure, and possibly Outrider (just trying to think of a great AM class, but could be other options) the next classes to go "neutral". My understanding is that the game really did plan to continue making more classes neutral, and real/perceived powerhouse classes are exactly the classes that should be considered for that. Defiler and bard in particular, seem like EXCELLENT candidates for this treatment at the moment.
To clarity something because it's just being overblown: I did not say Defiler and Bard are similar(simply what they want to accomplish is similar(figured I'd add this)). I feel like it's diving into a beating a dead horse stage.
Both classes need some adjustments to be brought in line. One side accepts this, the other doesn't. Simply put.
If I touched Bard, it'd be to reduce the resonance cap, probably in exchange for making juggle a little more usable (eg just making it mimic the three assassin daggers' storage mechanic from That Place).
Defiler would be an awful choice for neutral, imo, but that's mostly off of the skin rather than the mechanics. Bard's skin is better suited to it. Everyone loves to doot doot. Could change instruments for each side! Demonic violins! Ithaquan ukuleles!
Skins can be changed/new, separate skins made - a lot easier than mechanics.
I do think there is one very important difference between bard and defiler, and that is that bard already went through a maximum player hate phase and got at least -some- nerfs, although I readily allow that there is an excellent chance I'd still not enjoy playing against one.
Defiler, until very recently, has been a bit of a sleeper class. Sifting through archived classleads, there are Ahkan era buffs, and no major nerfs (actually, just no nerfs). Even a couple of more recent classleads are buffs - some of which were actually approved.
That tells me that defiler really is probably a powerhouse class that needs to go through its FIRST round of cautious nerfs, while bard has at least been scrutinized.
I do think there is one very important difference between bard and defiler, and that is that bard already went through a maximum player hate phase and got at least -some- nerfs, although I readily allow that there is an excellent chance I'd still not enjoy playing against one.
That tells me that defiler really is probably a powerhouse class that needs to go through its FIRST round of cautious nerfs, while bard has at least been scrutinized.
Trimming it down here a bit....you're saying you still don't want to face one, but hey let's take it easy on a class that is considered still extremely strong because it's already faced a few tiny adjustments? How do these two statements add up? Again, nobody is countering Defiler needing adjusting(this is largely agreed upon), but just because a class has gone through some "tweaking" doesn't mean it's immune to more "tweaking".
Edit:
I will say that we are all entitled to an opinion. Some are more heavy handed than others. Like I said we all agree Defiler needs tuning, some want it extreme others want it a bit light. Same can be said with a lot of classes that Imperian has.....that is why it's good to have views of many and not just a few. The idea of putting a thought about something that seems a bit "off" and then having a debate on it.
You can change skins??? Defiler and bard are different???
I don't understand why we keep coming back around to this like people haven't agreed to various nerfs to Defiler. I've suggested the key nerfs it *actually* needs multiple times, including mentioning the buildup, but deaf ears + I'm not wasting my classlead slots and more energy on someone else's crusade.
E: And I still have my finger on the moonwort button for bards. Only other prof that has me like that now is shaman, but they usually don't let you eat by the time you need it anyway.
The only thing I am saying is that trimming the two classes from this point forward is probably going to look different, or at least probably -should- look different. Not even saying that bard is immune to more tweaking. But if the mindset going in is that the two classes are somehow on roughly equal footing and need roughly equal nerfs, bard really probably does get nerfed right into the ground. Anyway, a lot of this becomes way less of an issue/will probably work itself out just fine if the two classes get slotted for neutral.
Gjarrus, you do seem open to tweaks. I keep feeling defensive at times, and realize that some comments are not necessarily directed at me.
Bard needs tweaking, but it's enough of a glass cannon with enough limitations on the offense that more than small tweaks would be debilitating.
Defiler has no such limitations and has a ton of leeway in terms of multiple kill methods, excessively forgiving resource management and a number of skills that are flat out silly, like the parry damage return, amongst others. I'd be amazed if Bard and Defiler got even close to the same kind of treatment this classlead round. (Defiler needs more than tweaks or tuning. It needs balancing which seems to be something that has never meaningfully happened to the class.)
I don't understand why we keep coming back around to this like people haven't agreed to various nerfs to Defiler. I've suggested the key nerfs it *actually* needs multiple times, including mentioning the buildup, but deaf ears + I'm not wasting my classlead slots and more energy on someone else's crusade.
I get it, but I sure don't look forward to all of the continued conflict over a couple of pretty hate inducing professions (I remember being on the wrong side of bard before it got ANY nerfs, as an AM player, mostly in teams, and just hating the world). I think several people are trying to be reasonable, but I also think being reasonable is actually hard, if not nearly impossible in many cases (knight is a good example of a case where it's somewhat easier to be consistently reasonable, because knights tend to be compared to each other very directly), not least because you really are on one side of a factional class most of the time, and that really matters.
Time to go play my dying mmo some more before they shut it down next month
-Predator is rough, and I think it lacks focus on how it's suppose to contribute in group fights as well as prevail in duels against specific enemy types. Crescent Cut does solid damage
...
That's it for me, I'm done monologuing.
It really doesn't. Since the class got destroyed I could take a level 3, with Athletic and I wasn't able to kill someone who was ONLY healing as Priest. If the highest artifact in the game doesn't let you burst someone down in the CC window, the class is garbage. Everyone agrees on this.
I feel like CC has seen a number of nerfs over the years for a variety of reasons - Standing CC spam was too good, then it was nerfed more because it was too good in teams because the target was prone so quickly, etc. That's kind of the problem, though - Having multiple limb damage classes that have the shared finisher condition of "is prone" makes balancing those classes awkward.
I'm not sure what to suggest that isn't clunky and I haven't played pred in years, but:
- Does CC scale to mangled limbs? If not, it should. That way it wouldn't be so nasty in teams, because right now I suspect it just scales off the target being prone and hindered, which is a much easier condition to achieve in teams and what lead to nerfs?
- Maybe add a skill to predator that plays up the sneaky assassin theme more? It could either be a passive damage bonus when the predator catches someone 1v1, or it could be a skill that costs no balance to activate, but causes the predator to take more damage from everyone except the specified target, making it risky in teams. The latter version might be too strong in some settings, though.
- Maybe add a skill to predator that plays up the sneaky assassin theme more? It could either be a passive damage bonus when the predator catches someone 1v1, or it could be a skill that costs no balance to activate, but causes the predator to take more damage from everyone except the specified target, making it risky in teams. The latter version might be too strong in some settings, though.
They could call it CIRCLE. In theory, they could add another which also increases dodge chance against a specific target and call it SPACING.
Though for game balance, you'd probably want them to require separate balances to raise, and then drop again on movement.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
And I completely disagree that bard is tied to magick thematically. I'd love to hear the rationale behind that, because...no. Not even remotely true. Voice is word remnants from the divine language. It would not be hard, at all, to thematically link the driving force behind the songs and other 'magickal' impacts to be driven by that same spiritual force or some other native force (Rashimiric leak?). Making it neutral would open up a TON of RP potential to other places and justifying the switch wouldn't be hard and is event-opportunity.
Tired of lazy answers from admin. Just say, "Not interested in doing this."
I'm sure there's some solid lore foundation behind Bards being tied to Magick, just one that has not yet been revealed to the populace at large. It's sort of like shards and Alekmanhala and the Core -- the effect (shards) were revealed before the cause (the Core).
currently tentatively active (may vanish for periods of time)
I'm sure there's some solid lore foundation behind Bards being tied to Magick, just one that has not yet been revealed to the populace at large. It's sort of like shards and Alekmanhala and the Core -- the effect (shards) were revealed before the cause (the Core).
Positive there is not. The skills in place for sketches and the songs and the like are nominally associated with magick at present, but there's absolutely no reason that can't be shifted via plot.
As for 'solid lore foundation', you are giving IRE way more credit than they deserve for lore consistency and development.
It's also magickal for balance reasons, mechanical reasons, and circle structure reasons. It's one of the "draw" classes, like Defiler, Monk, Priest etc, and whilst there was some noise made about voice not being magickal early on with bard, artistry and thespia have always been seen as magickal.
Could bard be made neutral? Maybe. Could any class be made neutral in the same fashion? Yeah. Does that mean it's a good idea? No.
Really hoping for more of the basic functionality of PVP to be addressed with this classlead go.
I've had to adjust to the "Zerg" type mentality of Imperian(one which i still truly hate, but whatever I'm over it), but the basic mechanics and what I call "cover up" skills within just the core mechanics are so (for a lack of a better word) awful.
I understand reflections have a classlead or two, but just personally speaking I really do hope they get put into a place where they're basically useless outside of being able to afford yourself a quick escape if you get jumped.
This is an example of the current PK model:
target person
person used ritual favour for 10 reflections
switch target
person used ritual favour for 10 reflections
switch target
person used ritual favour for 10 reflections
etc etc etc
This mixed with high end artifact users(myself included) just affords so much luxury within group fights. Rituals should certainly be strong within their own right, but strong versus broken are very different considerations.
Honestly, I am not sure how this has lasted so long into the core mechanics of the game. I just don't understand how we can have class balance discussions when this exists within the core feature of the game. Reflections is just one minor core mechanic, Imperian has plenty more that truly in my opinion only be addressed before any class gets adjusted. All I know is I support a heavy handling of reflections and the negative flow they have within the pk structure.
Comments
in this log i got hit with 267 raw poison damage just for hitting his parry. Defiler is a damage prof but this is insane.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/yAY73Yzt
Also, when providing proposed solutions please remember to 1) provide specific changes that you'd like to see and 2) provide real alternatives. Despite the fact that I tend to be the least visible admin in the game, I tend to do the most coding for these large projects. Vague solutions, if we end up implementing them, leave much to the imagination of the implementer. You do not want to leave anything up to my imagination. Just trust me on that. So if you want it done right, make your suggested changes detailed.
Along the same lines, if you only give one solution, your classlead may not be implemented despite being addressed to a legitimate problem. There are many reasons why a given solution may be unworkable, and there are limited resources to fixing things. If you provide only one solution and it's deemed unworkable we probably will just focus our resources elsewhere than trying to change your solution into something else. That's not to say we will never implement classleads with only one solution, but not that many problems have only one viable solution.
Finally, thank you for submitting the suggestions. I know it can be frustrating dealing with something that can seem like it really is broken. We want to improve things, but it's rare that there is consensus on a simple and good solution. So please, submit not just classleads, but also comments on them. There's no such thing as voting when it comes to these things, but solid comments on suggested changes from people on different sides of issues are a great help when trying to determine the best course of action.
That... should not be, on a class with two burst options. A viable kill route (Ravage a lot) shouldn't work alongside a second viable kill route (get them below 400, pop), in that way.
As for some of the current classleads - 671 is terrible. That would ruin bard. It wouldn't 'tone down' their affliction path or just slow them down, it would make Bard useless. It also demonstrates an utter lack of understanding about what yoth does and the current duration. The duration is pretty short already and making it last "a few seconds if you leave room" would make no actual difference - if someone gets away, it's safe to assume yoth drops if they're out of the room for even a few seconds.
Report 673... Just no. Bard isn't a class with precise affliction control and nerfing their already limited aff pool would be disastrous, because the class relies on the affs it does have to stand any chance of surviving the enemy offense. These reports both seem to stem from the ridiculous idea that Bard and Defiler are somehow equivalent, when Bard has a limited window to finish a target before their offense resets, and loses most of their progress within 10~ seconds of an enemy getting out of the room or spam shielding.
EDIT:
Also no way in hell shaman should get ignorance. They don't need another powerful affliction. Shaman is strong, and having a (minor) vulnerability to non-physical damage is totally fine, especially considering AB SHAMANISM COVER used right can already patch over this weakness neatly.
Defiler would be an awful choice for neutral, imo, but that's mostly off of the skin rather than the mechanics. Bard's skin is better suited to it. Everyone loves to doot doot. Could change instruments for each side! Demonic violins! Ithaquan ukuleles!
I do think there is one very important difference between bard and defiler, and that is that bard already went through a maximum player hate phase and got at least -some- nerfs, although I readily allow that there is an excellent chance I'd still not enjoy playing against one.
Defiler, until very recently, has been a bit of a sleeper class. Sifting through archived classleads, there are Ahkan era buffs, and no major nerfs (actually, just no nerfs). Even a couple of more recent classleads are buffs - some of which were actually approved.
That tells me that defiler really is probably a powerhouse class that needs to go through its FIRST round of cautious nerfs, while bard has at least been scrutinized.
Defiler and bard are different???
I don't understand why we keep coming back around to this like people haven't agreed to various nerfs to Defiler. I've suggested the key nerfs it *actually* needs multiple times, including mentioning the buildup, but deaf ears + I'm not wasting my classlead slots and more energy on someone else's crusade.
E: And I still have my finger on the moonwort button for bards. Only other prof that has me like that now is shaman, but they usually don't let you eat by the time you need it anyway.
Gjarrus, you do seem open to tweaks. I keep feeling defensive at times, and realize that some comments are not necessarily directed at me.
Defiler has no such limitations and has a ton of leeway in terms of multiple kill methods, excessively forgiving resource management and a number of skills that are flat out silly, like the parry damage return, amongst others. I'd be amazed if Bard and Defiler got even close to the same kind of treatment this classlead round. (Defiler needs more than tweaks or tuning. It needs balancing which seems to be something that has never meaningfully happened to the class.)
Time to go play my dying mmo some more before they shut it down next month
I'm not sure what to suggest that isn't clunky and I haven't played pred in years, but:
- Does CC scale to mangled limbs? If not, it should. That way it wouldn't be so nasty in teams, because right now I suspect it just scales off the target being prone and hindered, which is a much easier condition to achieve in teams and what lead to nerfs?
- Maybe add a skill to predator that plays up the sneaky assassin theme more? It could either be a passive damage bonus when the predator catches someone 1v1, or it could be a skill that costs no balance to activate, but causes the predator to take more damage from everyone except the specified target, making it risky in teams. The latter version might be too strong in some settings, though.
Though for game balance, you'd probably want them to require separate balances to raise, and then drop again on movement.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
Tired of lazy answers from admin. Just say, "Not interested in doing this."
(may vanish for periods of time)
It's also magickal for balance reasons, mechanical reasons, and circle structure reasons. It's one of the "draw" classes, like Defiler, Monk, Priest etc, and whilst there was some noise made about voice not being magickal early on with bard, artistry and thespia have always been seen as magickal.
Could bard be made neutral? Maybe. Could any class be made neutral in the same fashion? Yeah. Does that mean it's a good idea? No.
It just happens that Defiler sucks at dealing with reflections, heh. Maybe try using a totally different class?