So mages can spam disrupt keeping you perma off-eq, while gaining attunement and doing small damage in teams. This needs to go, and it shouldn't have to wait til next classleads.
Any affliction changes pending, Pyroglacia Disrupt's effects could be reversed which would keep the functionality the same outside of groups but dampen it in a group.
Kryss said:
Any affliction changes pending, Pyroglacia Disrupt's effects could be reversed which would keep the functionality the same outside of groups but dampen it in a group.
Ahaha. This is a great idea! Instead of causing the skill to disrupt and give water attune (mild annoyance + 1 herb aff), confusing when attune is greater than 4, let's change it so that it always gives two herb afflictions and only disrupts when it would actually be harmful! Exactly what is needed, I agree.
If we're moving to make the game more fun for newbies, it's pretty poo-ridden that the party line for demonic is "Hey uh, you're not a tried and tested pk dude, so could you just...not use your skills because it may screw over the team if you use spark wrong." <---This shouldn't be a classlead issue since it's a brand new class.
#fwdemonicproblems
Edit: Same stuff with marks (Ab shamanism marks)
Only one wytchen can mark a victim at a time which leads to a few problems. Overlap, reset, locks out skills for other wytchen (can't use other marks..at all) <-- I'm class leading this
If we're moving to make the game more fun for newbies, it's pretty poo-ridden that the party line for demonic is "Hey uh, you're not a tried and tested pk dude, so could you just...not use your skills because it may screw over the team if you use spark wrong." <---This shouldn't be a classlead issue since it's a brand new class.
#fwdemonicproblems
Edit: Same stuff with marks (Ab shamanism marks)
Only one wytchen can mark a victim at a time which leads to a few problems. Overlap, reset, locks out skills for other wytchen (can't use other marks..at all) <-- I'm class leading this
OH WHAT ARE YOU DOING, NOOB AFFLICTOR? Couldn't you... read my mind and tell that I was going to give Dementia, 0.2 s before you give Dementia. C'mon man, keep up.
Smiling sadistically, you swing a wicked looking flail powerfully at your left arm, ravaging your flesh.
H -86bp [12.9%] [134]
bal:3.81
At your command, a hideously warped treant shreds your skin with its branches, thorns cutting painfully into your flesh.
H -48cp [7.2%] [80]
aff+ addiction
eq:3.00
You whip a wicked looking flail through the air in front of yourself, to no effect.
Smiling sadistically, you swing a wicked looking flail powerfully at your left arm, ravaging your flesh.
Your left arm trembles slightly under the blow.
H -54bp [8.5%] [79]
This is the damage if I had to raze first.
This is standard defiler protocol. The idea here is play whackamole dishing out mid-level damage and hoping that entropy damage, this:
You quickly rub some epidermal salve on your skin.
Your ability to digest elixirs stabilizes.
aff- slow elixirs
Sudden pain strikes you as you attempt to rid yourself of the torment.
H -28p [4.4%] [38]
adds up to be % thresholds of max health, which makes a root grow into a seed. In teams, this is usually hard to pull off. We're looking at 15s for the root to evolve on its own. To counter this, they made a skill called treant evolve (desecration). The problem is you can't combo this like a standard treant attack. The limiting factor to this trick is ravage balance.
At your order, a hideously warped treant bellows loudly at yourself and the demonic seed implanted deep in your body explodes in a massive outburst of blood and gore.
H -143p [21.4%] [212] <-- not sensitive H -190p [28.4%] [212] <-- sensitive
I'm really torn of if entropy is 'good' enough to non-comboable. Removing the combo block would make it
In terms of OP --> Druid is 57.89dps. (220 * 3, 3.25s balance) (This may be 50.9, assuming wisp attack stuff)
By using 'treant evolve' you deny yourself the "exploding root" scenario where the root releases all the stored entropy damage (stacks by number of defilers). So you eat at least 25% your max health damage and immediately eat a bellow right after it. Treant evolve denies you this double burst (long game) to sacrifice for short term burst
I like it, it gives me a reason to be in a teamfight while being completely and totally inefficient to do in a 1v1.
Like icicles, but with added balance.
edit:
Alright guys, we need to talk about gutwyrm. I'm not clever enough to bring it in line with garrynbot without going completely overboard.
THE ISSUE: Garrynbot absolutely destroyed gutwyrm as a viable option because upon use, it will just automatically eat 3 herbs or so and be completely fine before the defiler even has balance back, regardless of herb balance or anything. The gutwyrm effect is very powerful, yes, but it shouldn't be off a person in less than a second.
Having it require the person be on herb balance to affect the gutwyrm would be a bad plan. The random nature of how many herbs it takes to kill the gutwyrm makes a "gutwyrm cannot be harmed for a bit after eating one of the herbs" system ridiculously imbalanced as you'll either ignore the wyrm entirely or lose half of your next few sips based on the alignment of the planets and whether or not you've been particularly godfearing this week. I thought of suggesting the gutwyrm give anorexia when it eats an herb it hates, but that would be shooting ourselves in the foot as we want people to cure for entropy.
I almost want to suggest an all new method of removing gutwyrm that would be more in line with the high power of the skill but more in line with garrynbot's capabilities. Thoughts?
Okay, so, I just looked through Hunter skills. Breath weapons are so cool, but absolutely completely useless right now. I can get through two layers of caloric for the majority of my ice buildup, just to have them apply caloric twice before I can do anything else. Similarly, why the hell does Hunter want incinerate that decreases armor? We're not even a damage profession.
Any suggestions as to what can be done to make them somewhat useful?
Incinerate decreases armor because that's what it was turned into to give everyone half their health pool back in fights against hunter/outrider. If I was asking myself "Why does defiler want a skill that does X, I can't use it in any meaningful fashion" I'd be here all day asking it about... 3/5 of the skillset.
But no, I don't know hunter well enough to know what it even does yet.
I had an idea for Gutwyrm that eventually mutated its way in to what Lartosis became. The idea was that we gave it a new cure method - eating toadstool 3 times. It doesn't do anything to the toadstool. Instead, the gutwyrm 'remembers' a portion of any health healed on the afflicted target, then bursts painfully to deal that remembered portion of damage upon the third toadstool consumption (or after a certain duration). Basically, more playing on the entropy theme sort of.
EDIT: You could adjust it to do damage or effects on a threshold system - 'He did A while gutwyrm was active, so do C. He did A and B, so do C and D.' i.e 30% health healed = do effect A, 60% = do effect A and B or some nonsense. There's a wealth of things you can do to make damage interesting.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
I think all of Shapeshifting apart from claw and stings are just meant as flavor. Looks like there were plans at some point for us to be a salve pressuring class like Outrider, but that's not viable currently. With targetted bludgeon or something similar, we might have something there, but even then, there is no finisher for that. Only use of salve pressure I can think of off the top of my head would be just a leg break to force a butisoled restoration and sticking anorexia for that salve balance.
As far as how to make those more usable, people don't want Hunter to have another kill method or a decent method for limb breaks, can you really blame them? Don't really see them giving us anything like that without major tradeoffs.
Sounds like freeze + gorilla pound all over again. Would be flavorful and cool if it was more feasible, but currently Hunter's other kill methods are insanely imbalanced to even consider making any changes in the other direction.
Hunter is an affliction class. Can we keep it that way, instead of trying to make it some kind of disgusting hybrid? Post-creation or post-beta hybridization never, ever works out well because nobody knows what they are doing. Shapeshifting has no more or less chaff than any other skill set, to be honest. Some of those skills are meant to play well with other classes in your circle, since the class was made post-shardfall era - it's not anybody's fault that Magick just has easier, less coordination-intensive options (see: Druid on the whole, Pyroglacia Icicles Mashing, etc).
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Iceblast/lash can put out some pretty decent damage, especially using trigger for lashes at health percentages.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Honestly, I'm overall disinclined to suggest any sort of upgrade to hunter's 'bad' skills. You see 'bad'. I see potential. I also don't see hunters...ever. Let us not forget that a hunter with a clue in a prime affliction statpack is going to run wildly unstoppable on anyone who actually tries to cure. Aka, I don't want to buff an already god-like setup and give them more toys.
-Nothing is addressing how stupid trigger is (it's really stupid).
-Nothing is addressing how you can bury me in high priority afflictions (at no cost) and then get bored and brainmelt me for 100% of my health.
-Not seeing the downgrade to basilisk rezz.
(At this point, it's on Garryn (and the rest of the class leads) to draw the parallel of "I nerf this. This class now sucks (Defiler, hello) maybe I should adjust this here to replace that (?)." In retrospect, mentioning defiler probably instilling a sense of foreboding with the threat of nerf
-Not gonna lie. If you're not changing willing to change the way trigger works, you really don't have the grounds to say "upgrade me plz." We saw how this panned out with Wardancers and Templars. No thank you. Hunter is already near the top of the food chain. At this point, if you're not getting kills as hunter in teams, that's because you're doing it wrong. -You can't claw while afflicted with metrazol? Try this, 'cure metrazol', then try to claw. I can't dsl either, but I'm going to class lead that. I'm going to eat maidenhair. OH MY GOD TWO MORE AFFLICTIONS.
-Speaking of claw, limit the toxins that can be delivered on it. All of toxins minus hemotoxin, metrazol, ciguatoxin.
So, after some testing, the entire problem around gutwyrm stems from ginger being able to just be spam eaten all day like it was candy, because ginger does not respect herb balance, as it's not a curative herb. If we remove ginger from the cure list, you get one heal for free when you eat the toadstool against defiler, and then you get to decide if you want to use your herb balance to pop a galingale to hasten the process. There's still the RNG factor causing gutwyrm to range from pointless to huge momentum boost though.
If we remove ginger, remove the damage from eating herbs, and set the gutwyrm static to three uses of either toadstool OR galingale, would that be acceptably balanced?
I'll probably suggest some off the wall alternate skill effects of gutwyrm entirely, but this sounds like it could be neat and in keeping with the original intent and power of the skill.
I can see the motivation behind removing metrazol/cigua/hemotoxin from claw, but unless I'm missing something hunters would just switch to throwing a fast handaxe plus basilisk, I'd think? I suppose there'd be a minor trade off in damage, but its never the claw which kills you anyway.
I'm gonna need you to calm down just a little bit. If Gurn's classlead for high priority triggers hasn't already been submitted, it's just waiting on finishing touches. He's talked plenty about how he's like to see triggers changed(esp removing high priority afflictions). I don't see Garryn making any bigger changes to trigger than adjusting the supremacy lists and what can be triggered on, so no trigger revamp in the works, sorry.
Also, Gurn's point in the claw classlead that you're missing somehow, is that no other class(that I'm aware of) is 100% disabled by Metrazol. This doesn't do anything to balance anything, it just means Hunter is screwed against double-toxin classes. Also, "cure metrazol" doesn't do much when your enemy can DSL at 2s and there's no cooldown for it. It is everything you hate, but you're acting like it's okay because it's effecting Hunter. It's not. Also, " I can't dsl either,"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC '-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN' 'http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd'><259/282h 215/215m 0b 0s <ebdb>> 71.37 [GurnTEST] [Me:METRAZOL]diag diag You are: has a paralysed right arm and right leg. blind. deaf. an insomniac. Equilibrium Taken: 0.70s <259/282h 215/215m 0b 0s <-bdb>> 71.37 [GurnTEST] afflist [No more known afflictions on you.] (Lithos): Recovered Equilibrium! <259/282h 215/215m 0b 0s <ebdb>> 71.37 [GurnTEST]i You are wielding a strong broadsword in your left hand. You are holding: a personal journal, a soot-blackened tinderbox, a cobra-etched sinn vial, 20 delicately carved stone pipes, a silver tinderbox, an azure cowled cloak with bells, 4 twining filigree orchid sinn vials. You are wearing: a lightning bolt-shaped pack, a gold-inked vialbelt of dark crimson leather. You have 27 types of items in the storage. You possess 32 items and are carrying 14615 gold sovereigns. <259/282h 215/215m 0b 0s <ebdb>> 71.37 [GurnTEST]dsl me You swing a strong broadsword at yourself with a powerful strike. Damage Taken: 77 cutting, physical (raw damage: 81) You feel a brief numbness in your limbs, but it quickly fades. You swing a strong broadsword at yourself with a powerful strike. Damage Taken: 77 cutting, physical (raw damage: 81) Your insomnia has cleared up. You have lost the insomnia defence. Balance Taken: 4.22s <103/282h 215/215m 5b 0s <e- db>> 71.37 [GurnTEST]
Sword left hand. Paralyzed right arm. Do I really have to explain this to you or are you that desperate to defend a non-point?
I'm gonna need you to calm down just a little bit. <-- This is just a sad.
If Gurn's classlead for high priority triggers hasn't already been submitted, it's just waiting on finishing touches. <-- Which doesn't invalidate anything I posted, if anything it's an accidental agreement.
He's talked plenty about how he's like to see triggers changed(esp removing high priority afflictions). <-- Prove it. (Aka: Show me the classleads!)
I don't see Garryn making any bigger changes to trigger than adjusting the supremacy lists and what can be triggered on, so no trigger revamp in the works, sorry. <-- Doesn't invalidate anything I said. It's called classleads, not 'wait on garryn to pander to x, y, z.'
Also, Gurn's point in the claw classlead that you're missing somehow, is that no other class(that I'm aware of) is 100% disabled by Metrazol. <-- This is a blatant misrepresentation. Your offense isn't 100% disabled. It may be because you're a one dimensional trick pony, but triggers, insanity, and instability still fire. You can probably order the basilisk to attack too. Metrazol can't shut down the entire supremacy/shape shifting skill set. Still doesn't counter "eat maidenhair, purge blood, touch tree." Also known as "curing."
This doesn't do anything to balance anything, it just means Hunter is screwed against double-toxin classes. <-- This seems like a personal problem, tbh. You don't HAVE to claw. You just want to, so that you can use metrazol and trigger it. The rest of the world, including 2h classes, seem to do respectably against the dreaded two toxin offense. Why can't you?
Also, "cure metrazol" doesn't do much when your enemy can DSL at 2s and there's no cooldown for it. It is everything you hate, but you're acting like it's okay because it's effecting Hunter. It's not. Also, " I can't dsl either," <-- You're forgetting that each 3rd dsl is a raze, which means you're still in the window to pick up a tree and a purge blood. If I can heal metrazol in teams enough to claymore dsl, you can survive metrazol in 1v1 and claw metrazol/trigger. Maybe you should prioritize metrazol higher? With the ciguatoxin cooldown, it should be cured first. Like I said, this is a personal problem that anything with a 2h weapon shares. Correcting a typo with worse grammar? I hope you don't approach combat with such sloppy mechanics. /rimshot.
The take home message here was "it's a give and take" scenario. Clearly, that's over your head.
Sword left hand. Paralyzed right arm. Do I really have to explain this to you or are you that desperate to defend a non-point? <--- This is exactly what the classlead does. Metrazol currently paralyzes hunter because if either right arm or left arm is locked, Hunter can't attack, but basilisk attack will go through anyway. The classlead intends to give the Hunter a 50% chance of attacking if metrazol hits, just like how knights currently operate. In-line attacks are overdue for Hunters, in any case.
Classlead 29. I'm waiting on people to give feedback. <-- Which doesn't invalidate anything I posted, if anything it's an accidental agreement.
<-- Prove it. (Aka: Show me the classleads!)
<-- This seems like a personal problem, tbh. You don't HAVE to claw. You just want to, so that you can use metrazol and trigger it. The rest of the world, including 2h classes, seem to do respectably against the dreaded two toxin offense. Why can't you?
I think you misunderstand how Hunter works. Literally all shapeshifting is blocked by metrazol. I can't sting, I can't claw, I can't bludgeon, I can't even summon fire or use a breath weapon.
This means that if I were to attack, I would be attacking with only the Supremacy skillset, or an affliction rate of 1 per 2.4 seconds.
Okay, now that's done with: Basilisk statuette. This artifact makes Hunter weird to balance, as it take an entire affliction away from being able to do an instant-kill brainmelt. That's not necessary, and forces balance around a 600 credit artifact(other things like diadem aside). How can statuette be changed without making it a useless artifact no one buys?
I agree with you. I hate the new artifacts for outrider/druid/hunter/wytchen (And I have this one). They're so one dimensional it's awful. I'd fix them by deleting them.
I'd agree with you, but for the fact that IRE wants money, and they won't flat out delete something that can make money. They're much more likely to change it than to delete it, and in its current state, it shouldn't really be there.
For Hunter, you already can't trigger off metrazol or ciguatoxin. And since ciguatoxin is likely having its effect rebalanced, there seems little reason to remove these afflictions from being able to be clawed as well, especially since that just means its time go grab a handaxe. In Conjunction with Classlead 29, Hunter will be no longer able to force you to fire a trigger you have through just giving majorly debilitating high priority afflictions.
Comments
Ahaha. This is a great idea! Instead of causing the skill to disrupt and give water attune (mild annoyance + 1 herb aff), confusing when attune is greater than 4, let's change it so that it always gives two herb afflictions and only disrupts when it would actually be harmful! Exactly what is needed, I agree.
If we're moving to make the game more fun for newbies, it's pretty poo-ridden that the party line for demonic is "Hey uh, you're not a tried and tested pk dude, so could you just...not use your skills because it may screw over the team if you use spark wrong." <---This shouldn't be a classlead issue since it's a brand new class.
Same stuff with marks (Ab shamanism marks)
Only one wytchen can mark a victim at a time which leads to a few problems. Overlap, reset, locks out skills for other wytchen (can't use other marks..at all) <-- I'm class leading this
This is the damage if I had to raze first.
This is standard defiler protocol. The idea here is play whackamole dishing out mid-level damage and hoping that entropy damage, this:
Ravage thornroot/treant attack (3.8) --> Treant evolve (3s) --> ravage/bellow
134 damage (1-2 affs) 0d, 0aff 86/143 (1aff)
H -190p [28.4%] [212] <-- sensitive
I'm really torn of if entropy is 'good' enough to non-comboable. Removing the combo block would make it
134 damage (1-2 affs) 86d, 1aff 86/143 (1aff)
DPS = 39.4 (449/11.4) (Druids is 220@3?)
In terms of OP --> Druid is 57.89dps. (220 * 3, 3.25s balance) (This may be 50.9, assuming wisp attack stuff)
By using 'treant evolve' you deny yourself the "exploding root" scenario where the root releases all the stored entropy damage (stacks by number of defilers). So you eat at least 25% your max health damage and immediately eat a bellow right after it. Treant evolve denies you this double burst (long game) to sacrifice for short term burst
Like icicles, but with added balance.
edit:
Alright guys, we need to talk about gutwyrm. I'm not clever enough to bring it in line with garrynbot without going completely overboard.
THE ISSUE: Garrynbot absolutely destroyed gutwyrm as a viable option because upon use, it will just automatically eat 3 herbs or so and be completely fine before the defiler even has balance back, regardless of herb balance or anything. The gutwyrm effect is very powerful, yes, but it shouldn't be off a person in less than a second.
Having it require the person be on herb balance to affect the gutwyrm would be a bad plan. The random nature of how many herbs it takes to kill the gutwyrm makes a "gutwyrm cannot be harmed for a bit after eating one of the herbs" system ridiculously imbalanced as you'll either ignore the wyrm entirely or lose half of your next few sips based on the alignment of the planets and whether or not you've been particularly godfearing this week. I thought of suggesting the gutwyrm give anorexia when it eats an herb it hates, but that would be shooting ourselves in the foot as we want people to cure for entropy.
I almost want to suggest an all new method of removing gutwyrm that would be more in line with the high power of the skill but more in line with garrynbot's capabilities. Thoughts?
But no, I don't know hunter well enough to know what it even does yet.
EDIT: You could adjust it to do damage or effects on a threshold system - 'He did A while gutwyrm was active, so do C. He did A and B, so do C and D.' i.e 30% health healed = do effect A, 60% = do effect A and B or some nonsense. There's a wealth of things you can do to make damage interesting.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
-You can't claw while afflicted with metrazol? Try this, 'cure metrazol', then try to claw. I can't dsl either, but I'm going to class lead that. I'm going to eat maidenhair. OH MY GOD TWO MORE AFFLICTIONS.
If we remove ginger, remove the damage from eating herbs, and set the gutwyrm static to three uses of either toadstool OR galingale, would that be acceptably balanced?
I'll probably suggest some off the wall alternate skill effects of gutwyrm entirely, but this sounds like it could be neat and in keeping with the original intent and power of the skill.
Also, Gurn's point in the claw classlead that you're missing somehow, is that no other class(that I'm aware of) is 100% disabled by Metrazol. This doesn't do anything to balance anything, it just means Hunter is screwed against double-toxin classes. Also, "cure metrazol" doesn't do much when your enemy can DSL at 2s and there's no cooldown for it. It is everything you hate, but you're acting like it's okay because it's effecting Hunter. It's not. Also, " I can't dsl either," <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC '-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN' 'http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd'><259/282h 215/215m 0b 0s <eb db>> 71.37 [Gurn TEST]
[Me: METRAZOL]diag
diag
You are:
has a paralysed right arm and right leg.
blind.
deaf.
an insomniac.
Equilibrium Taken: 0.70s
<259/282h 215/215m 0b 0s <-b db>> 71.37 [Gurn TEST]
afflist
[No more known afflictions on you.]
(Lithos): Recovered Equilibrium!
<259/282h 215/215m 0b 0s <eb db>> 71.37 [Gurn TEST]i
You are wielding a strong broadsword in your left hand.
You are holding:
a personal journal, a soot-blackened tinderbox, a cobra-etched sinn vial, 20 delicately carved stone
pipes, a silver tinderbox, an azure cowled cloak with bells, 4 twining filigree orchid sinn vials.
You are wearing:
a lightning bolt-shaped pack, a gold-inked vialbelt of dark crimson leather.
You have 27 types of items in the storage.
You possess 32 items and are carrying 14615 gold sovereigns.
<259/282h 215/215m 0b 0s <eb db>> 71.37 [Gurn TEST]dsl me
You swing a strong broadsword at yourself with a powerful strike.
Damage Taken: 77 cutting, physical (raw damage: 81)
You feel a brief numbness in your limbs, but it quickly fades.
You swing a strong broadsword at yourself with a powerful strike.
Damage Taken: 77 cutting, physical (raw damage: 81)
Your insomnia has cleared up.
You have lost the insomnia defence.
Balance Taken: 4.22s
<103/282h 215/215m 5b 0s <e- db>> 71.37 [Gurn TEST]
Sword left hand. Paralyzed right arm. Do I really have to explain this to you or are you that desperate to defend a non-point?
The take home message here was "it's a give and take" scenario. Clearly, that's over your head.