Have you considered doing something else to escape the room than walking or leaping? There's ways around firewalls, you know. They often involve a bucket of water!
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Yeah. That's all find and dandy, except that eats balance during which the pred can just put the firewall back up since threadtrap isn't channeled. It's probably balanced just fine for 1v1, but it's too powerful in raid situations where pred A can just wail on you until you douse, incen again, and continue hitting like nothing happened. If there's something I'm missing about needing to put threadtrap back up after each time it activates, let me know, but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of it.
Maybe I hallucinated this, but I think someone said that the problem is in the order of events on room entrance effects
Right now it's
FIRE WALL --> THREADTRAP
and it needs to be
THREADTRAP -- FIREWALL
@Sarrius is just being a tool for the sake of being a tool. It's a crappy gimmick. We all know it's a crappy gimmick. Sure you can counter the gimmick, but I don't think thread trap has a 'warning' for the adjacent rooms. If you don't know it's there, how do you know to counter it? You want people to douse every room while moving around in city defense? Surely this is a joke.
Report #108 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Submitted by: Lionas Status : Approved Skillset : Devotion Skillname : Seance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Problem: You can lay as many seance rites as devotion will allow (a lot), effectively allowing you to carpet bombing a path through a bottleneck with super unphase/unblackwind. This is a unique super boon to AM that allows near immunity to infiltration. In contrast, Demonic anti-phase requires the target enter the room it is used in as a channelled action with a high cost available to one profession (does not work if already in-room and not moving) and Magick anti-phase is a one-shot consumable item (albeit usable by anyone). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Solution #1: One seance per person, per duration. If not adjacent/in room, rite is paused. Per duration means a new one cannot be placed until the old wears off or is consumed (via consumption). Solution #2: One seance per person. If not adjacent/in room, rite is paused. A new seance can be placed at any time, but doing so removes the existing seance. Solution #3: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Decision: Okay, although the proposed alterations feel a tad excessive - I'll change seance to fire only if its owner is present/adjacent, but retain the ability to have multiple rites, similar to what we did with piety/gravehands ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #128 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Submitted by: Lionas Status : Approved Skillset : Devotion Skillname : Rites ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Problem: Devotion users can drop a whole slew of rites and leave the room, allowing rites to continue ticking. This issue was addressed with vibes, but not rites. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Solution #1: Rites are paused when the devotion user is not in room or adjacent. Must be re-converged to be unpaused Solution #2: Rites are paused when the devotion user is not in room or adjacent. Reentering the room unpauses rites Solution #3: NOTE: this is NOT mutually exclusive with classlead 108, as it still does not solve the "place a bunch of seance around a choke point" problem (as they could still have multiple in adjacent rooms with this classlead). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Decision: Solution 2, will apply to offensive in-room rites only, not convocation, allsight, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The approval to 108 is meaningless, because the effect is identical to 128. This is specifically NOT the solution I was looking for. The comparison to piety and gravehands isn't relevant. Seance is nothing like these effects - it should be compared to eye sigil and juxtaposition, not holding skills.
Magick's skill is a single-use item, but does not require a limited resource and can be used by any class. The tradeoff is that you must know in advance where someone is to use it. This is fine, and balanced.
Both demonic and antimagick's skills require expending a finite resource, but demonic's is much more expensive and much more limited (it only works if they enter the room, not if they are already present or they leave the room, and it can only be placed in a single room. It's also channeled). It is a 100% chance if someone enters the room, but has a prohibitive upkeep. In comparison, antimagick's ability allows for multiple rooms to be covered, but with phased individuals revealed on a tick. However, even after this change, it can still be placed on a minimum of three rooms around a choke point (potentially more, depending on exits and shortest paths, though more than 3 is a rare exception). Even with the fact that you must be in the room when it ticks, the chance to catch someone is too high for the cost and requirements.
One of two things needs to be done. Either seance needs to be changed further, or juxtaposition needs to be changed. Juxtaposition is a channeled, high-cost skill. Seance is a comparatively low-cost fire-and-forget.
tl;dr of the problem: Seance is too good, juxtaposition sucks. Eye is fine.
Solution starts here, everything above it is a description of the problem.
Solution: Either pick a different solution to piety (like one of those proposed, which I don't feel are excessive), or change juxtaposition as follows (not piece-meal, these are intended as an all-in-one solution): 1) If someone is already in the room when juxtaposition starts, they are also unphased. 2) Reduce the cost of juxtaposition significantly 3) Allow more actions while using juxtaposition. This can be limited to safe actions, but I'd prefer things like healing, applying mass, etc also be included. Offensive actions or actions that take bal/eq would still remove it.
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
In wake of 52 getting rejected, can I get a Summon Entourage command that works on a higher eq timer than what the current summon for a single creature is?
not sure what you're asking for, you can already SUMMON pet1 pet2 pet3 pet4 pet5 pet6 to call them at once, and CALL ANIMALS to call any existing ones back to you.
Were there any classleads regarding masked skills (and how they're a bad mechanic)? I check Misc, but didn't really have time to dig last night. In fact, a full dump of all classleads like last time would be amazing.
The Wytchen rez costs bone and goldink, and there's an artifact that lets one ignore the ink cost entirely when they're creating it, effectively just making it cost bone.
While the artifact requirement to remove the cost is something Hunters don't have, you only need one person with it to generate all the gold dust you'd ever want. NONE of the battlerezzes carry significant costs.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Necromancy - Animate and Devotion - Resurrection would like a word with you.
EDIT: And wytchen rez could probably stand to have a different resource associated, or a cooldown given.
While I agree that the rezzes need a cooldown or steep resource requirement, I think... as a whole... I'd prefer to see devotion and essence go the way of the dodo. And haze. And any of that other stupid crap that I can't think of.
EDIT: Changed my mind in light of someone smarter than me, see Khizan's post below
I don't think the battlerezz is much of a problem with the current death system because unless you're amazingly on-the-ball with on-the-spot brezzes, they're going to be out of Dis so fast that the rezzes have become largely meaningless.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Yes, but in the current environment if you're not charging back into battle within 30 seconds, your side is losing because the other side is certainly doing that.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Letting someone rez you lets you come back without maluses, which isn't something that should be easy.
If the maluses actually meant something right now, I'd agree? But practically, they don't do a ton. If this gets moved to a forced peace or something, sure, I'll be on board.
It's a little late for this, but honestly, the entire concept of a battle rez needs looked at. In our current situation, the only real use for battle rezzes would be curing someone's rez weakness.
My suggestion would be just getting rid of crappy resource drains(devotion, essence, arbitrary comms) and replace it with a cost specifically designed to prevent it from being used in combat or against bosses. Something like pulling the caster down to 10% HP and 10% MP with some flavor text about having to give the rezzee part of your life energy or whatever suits admins. No HP qualifier on using it, so it can still be used to rez more than one fighter quickly if you're very safe, but if you use it in combat, you're sitting at 10% and off-bal for 10 seconds or so, meaning you're toast if the other team is paying attention. I think that's pretty appropriate for the current death system.
Mage elemental attunements are damned annoying. It's really just bard with another name and it's incredibly stupid.
Problem 1: They're at the bottom of the cure order.
Why it's a problem: This destroys the point of curing priority. I know that earth/water attunement is going to kill me. I can't do anything about it. Why? Because it's buried under a small to large pile of useless filler. I'd need 2-3 cure balances to get to the bottom. Whoops, I'm dying. I guess it got cured.
Problem 2.
They stack.
Why it's a problem. These attunements are really 4 afflictions. I have to waste 1-4 real cure attempts to heal this. Meanwhile, I'm getting hinder spammed. What was it like to have equilibrium? Ask me after I buy back.
Problem 3
Too many good hinder afflictions
Why it's a problem.
I can't attack effectively because I'm eating a hinder aff on every mage combo. I can't cure what I need to so I won't die. I can't attack to prevent you from killing me. If I try to attack I'm off balance/equilbrium for 7s, only to eat a disrupt at the end of that on top of stacking more attunements I won't be able to cure because for the love of god I want to attack.
Problem 4
Small picture design leads to big picture problems
Rune flares are a great mistake in my opinion. Nairat/Loshre just magnify problem 1 by a factor of dumb. Then throw in the equally misguided hunter, where every time I cure a high priority affliction I eat two hinders.
In the beta, we ran into this problem with summoner. It was too easy to stack taint attunement and once you got 3-4 it was lights out. Mage is really no different. You don't even have to be good at mage. I can't think of a single mage who really does anything impressive or useful. The afflictions don't matter so you don't have to track them at all. All you have to do is build attunement and faceroll that **** to the finish line. Chances are that your opponent won't be able to hit back anyways.
Solutions:
-Cooldowns on receiving same elemental attunements. Aka: I should not eat 3 levels of 1 attunement in one round.
-Can we agree spamcicles is dumb now? I know eight of us said they were dumb in the beta, but I guess we were biased. Let's not make the bellow mistake of "The setup up to this skill has a 2x, 3x, 4x reward at the end of the tunnel."
-Reevaluate how attunements stack. Having 4 afflictions per level of attunement per element is just bad. 16 afflictions on top of the heaping helping of afflictions they already have?
-Removing decent hindering afflictions from main line/setup attacks. I'm even going to throw shamanism inhibit under the bus. In the age of everyone is a combo class (dumb) lethargy and confusion in the same attack is short sighted and bad. (Masked confusion/daze classlead, writhe classlead, ciguatoxin classlead).
-Hinders. Reduce their effects. Make them not stack. I should take the greater of two penalties, not the sum total of both. Ahkan you tried to fight? Lol. You're off eq for 7s. Have a nice day.
-Going off the point before this, there was a long standing design paradigm that read "Disrupt skills are not comboable." Bring it back. Stick to it. Never deviate.
-Going off both points before this. I'm sure people like to attack. Let us do that. It's much easier to eat a death when you can rationalize "i fought the good fight" as opposed to "I sat there off balance/eq for like 10s while I got pecked to death by three chickens, one of which was on fire.
-Runeflare nairat and loshre are bad. You really can't balance them. Neither class (wytch or runeguard) needs shadowplant the greater.
**To be fair, you can apply this rant to mechanics in both Demonic and AM, it's just really prevalent in mage as they can lock you off eq for more or less eternity.
Classleads about icicles, disrupt and lethargy were all approved. How exactly they will pan out I don't know. But hopefully with those and whatever happens in this mini beta we can see some of this stuff made more manageable.
Obviously. I was posting here to see if we can go beyond those classleads and relate some of the issues to other classleads filed to see if they can be addressed as well.
Some ideas:
Make attunements cured last only if they have a specific affliction (like taint attunement for Summoners).
Curing attunements always cure two levels, reducing the herb stacking from four to two.
Completely agree with Ahkan that same attunement give should have a small ICD.
Almost, but not quite. att4 |herb| att2 vs att4 |herb| att3 |herb| att2, where ea. |herb| is a window for affs. 1v1, no diff. 1vMany, -almost- no diff, but certainly enough.
So when I use a level 2 whip, I get around 27 dps as fast. That's about the same as fast puncture dps. The assassin/renegade bashing problem has yet to be solved. I still think worm choke should be made a bashing attack as well.
Have you tried with other statpacks? It might even out a bit more/improve a bit with extra strength/tankiness and a less advantageous combat balance if someone was just interested in pve/rp.
It's a strength-based bashing skill and so the DPS will be best as Strong or Athletic. Strong will have a very marginal advantage, iirc.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
So... I've been thinking on things that could use refining in the Outrider profession and given my lack of experience, I was curious for feedback/input and how I should go about submitting these when I have the chance to. (Also, how do classleads work? Is it a once a year thing? If so ) I don't think the class is underpowered in any way (emphasis, at all), but there are some... annoying... things that I think could use some brushing up.
First, the pet 'problem' - I have a couple of issues here - it is ungodly slow to setupfor a pretty good chunk of my offense (24 sec eq timer... halved if in affinity, but, first, this is awfully unreliable to hope to be in affinity and, second, 12 seconds is still painfully slow for a necessary part of my offense), the intimidate/resummon mechanic is stupid, Outrider pets are stupidly spammy, and passive attacks are largely silly in general ... but as I've been thinking about it and I have some issues with changing how surge works to something more active... namely, having an on-command lacerate is going to be too powerful... that means I could deliver up to 3 nightshade afflictions (haemophilia, blackened spear, and an Outrider specific toxin), on command, at the same time, without having the setup of axetosses... additionally, I could potentially do 4 salve afflictions on command (2 broken legs, frozen spear, and Nyordian) um... yikes.
So the way this seems to work out now is that you can surge one pet per balance... and each pet has a longer passive attack time than my active balance recovery (I think this works to be about twice as slow, give or take with balance at 3.06 and the pet attack at closer to 5-6 seconds?). Practically, this plays out, more or less, that I alternate between surging a couple of pets depending on what I am doing... lacerate and smash, (though I am starting to think I need to be smarter about surging the smash pet depending for limb damage?) So, now I am actually presented a problem with rolling it into one passive pet: namely that you actually lose the number of surges you can have going at one time... and you can't just make the pet attack faster because then we get into the problems of my affliction rate and delivering 3 nightshades at one time... 4 salves at one time, etc. Option 1 that I am not a huge fan of because I think it is lazy - cut summon time down to 3-5 seconds... make the pets unable to be intimidated. I think this more the bandaid route, but it does solve my MAJOR issues. Another option is to roll it into 2 pets with a passive attack - preferably the icewyrm and hunting pet (I would prefer something that flew so it could follow me when I'm flying on my wyrm?). That way I can still keep 2 surges going at the same time and the mechanics don't change a ton. Additionally, get rid of the intimidate mechanic on these... this is stupid and I am not going to fight without my wyrm or hunting pet. This helps the spam a bit by not having quite so many pets, speeds up my setup for a necessary part of my offense, and it SHOULD get rid of the passive pet attack that steals balance... I don't need this and it is an annoying pet to everyone else... for the most part, I see this as only pros, except for one thought: that if the passive nausea pet attack gets deleted, I do lose a bit of nightshade pressure. My second thought that I like the mechanics of better, would be to roll all the surges into the icewyrm and make the surges active... get rid of the passive attack entirely... but be unable to cycle the same surge twice in a row. This cuts spam, gives me a bit more control, keeps me from consistently hammering out 3 nightshade afflictions every balance. Cons I see to this approach though - that is still an awful lot of concentrated afflictions to have on command, even if it only happens every other attack... but it also gets rid of the passive nausea pet attack ... so maybe these help counteract each other... I dunno. What do you guys think and have any thoughts on how this should be handled? Ozreas' classlead was rejected, for reasons I'm not entirely sure of, but I still think something needs to be done here. Everyone keeps saying they like the flavor of it, but I don't quite buy that - I'm on a flying lizard most of the time, why should the Enchanted Forest come to life around me and bears and wolves suddenly bow before me? Leave that stuff to druids. (If someone throws Predator out as example of flavor, I think it also does not fit with their class flavor... except MAYBE the wolf...)... between that, the setup time, and the spam... I think there is a pretty good case to change it.
My second thought is some of the 'telegraphing' nature of the class. This is where I start drawing more of a loss on what to do about it, because I'm not certain how some of my thoughts impact my class and how it impacts combatting with the rest of the classes, and I don't want to accidentally classlead the creation Druid, pt. 2. Basically, the way it works is that if I start tossing axes, you are either going to want to touch web, move, do ANYTHING to interrupt me. Which is fine, and I realize that on some level, every class has this problem. But, when I am tossing axes - I am not doing anything else either. So it is REALLY easy to interrupt. My thought here is a 'what if' ... What if there were a transcendent ability in Hunting that tosses two axes at the same time... at twice the balance and the earliest they could drop is 6 seconds... maximum, 12. Functionally, this works the exact same - I can have two axes land at the same balance cost with no quicker payoff... the difference is that I can't be hindered in between throwing two axes. I don't know if this is too much or not though... and I'm curious if anyone else has any thoughts or remedies.
Sorry for the length, I just know my lack of experience is going to get the better of my classlead submissions down the road if I don't bounce this off of you guys for feedback.
Comments
Right now it's
THREADTRAP -- FIREWALL
@Sarrius is just being a tool for the sake of being a tool. It's a crappy gimmick. We all know it's a crappy gimmick. Sure you can counter the gimmick, but I don't think thread trap has a 'warning' for the adjacent rooms. If you don't know it's there, how do you know to counter it? You want people to douse every room while moving around in city defense? Surely this is a joke.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: Lionas Status : Approved
Skillset : Devotion Skillname : Seance
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
You can lay as many seance rites as devotion will allow (a lot), effectively allowing you to carpet bombing a path through a bottleneck with super unphase/unblackwind. This is a unique super boon to AM that allows near immunity to infiltration. In contrast, Demonic anti-phase requires the target enter the room it is used in as a channelled action with a high cost available to one profession (does not work if already in-room and not moving) and Magick anti-phase is a one-shot consumable item (albeit usable by anyone).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
One seance per person, per duration. If not adjacent/in room, rite is paused. Per duration means a new one cannot be placed until the old wears off or is consumed (via consumption).
Solution #2:
One seance per person. If not adjacent/in room, rite is paused. A new seance can be placed at any time, but doing so removes the existing seance.
Solution #3:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decision:
Okay, although the proposed alterations feel a tad excessive - I'll change seance to fire only if its owner is present/adjacent, but retain the ability to have multiple rites, similar to what we did with piety/gravehands
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #128
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: Lionas Status : Approved
Skillset : Devotion Skillname : Rites
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
Devotion users can drop a whole slew of rites and leave the room, allowing rites to continue ticking. This issue was addressed with vibes, but not rites.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
Rites are paused when the devotion user is not in room or adjacent. Must be re-converged to be unpaused
Solution #2:
Rites are paused when the devotion user is not in room or adjacent. Reentering the room unpauses rites
Solution #3:
NOTE: this is NOT mutually exclusive with classlead 108, as it still does not solve the "place a bunch of seance around a choke point" problem (as they could still have multiple in adjacent rooms with this classlead).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decision:
Solution 2, will apply to offensive in-room rites only, not convocation, allsight, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The approval to 108 is meaningless, because the effect is identical to 128. This is specifically NOT the solution I was looking for. The comparison to piety and gravehands isn't relevant. Seance is nothing like these effects - it should be compared to eye sigil and juxtaposition, not holding skills.
Magick's skill is a single-use item, but does not require a limited resource and can be used by any class. The tradeoff is that you must know in advance where someone is to use it. This is fine, and balanced.
Both demonic and antimagick's skills require expending a finite resource, but demonic's is much more expensive and much more limited (it only works if they enter the room, not if they are already present or they leave the room, and it can only be placed in a single room. It's also channeled). It is a 100% chance if someone enters the room, but has a prohibitive upkeep. In comparison, antimagick's ability allows for multiple rooms to be covered, but with phased individuals revealed on a tick. However, even after this change, it can still be placed on a minimum of three rooms around a choke point (potentially more, depending on exits and shortest paths, though more than 3 is a rare exception). Even with the fact that you must be in the room when it ticks, the chance to catch someone is too high for the cost and requirements.
One of two things needs to be done. Either seance needs to be changed further, or juxtaposition needs to be changed. Juxtaposition is a channeled, high-cost skill. Seance is a comparatively low-cost fire-and-forget.
tl;dr of the problem: Seance is too good, juxtaposition sucks. Eye is fine.
Solution starts here, everything above it is a description of the problem.
Solution: Either pick a different solution to piety (like one of those proposed, which I don't feel are excessive), or change juxtaposition as follows (not piece-meal, these are intended as an all-in-one solution):
1) If someone is already in the room when juxtaposition starts, they are also unphased.
2) Reduce the cost of juxtaposition significantly
3) Allow more actions while using juxtaposition. This can be limited to safe actions, but I'd prefer things like healing, applying mass, etc also be included. Offensive actions or actions that take bal/eq would still remove it.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
[31] Basilisk resurrections now require a piece of obsidian
Here's what Khandava has:
Obsidian: 1992 + 35000 = 36992 15 0 15
This is not a limited resource. This change effectively did nothing.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
EDIT: And wytchen rez could probably stand to have a different resource associated, or a cooldown given.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
They're at the bottom of the cure order.
Why it's a problem:
This destroys the point of curing priority. I know that earth/water attunement is going to kill me. I can't do anything about it. Why? Because it's buried under a small to large pile of useless filler. I'd need 2-3 cure balances to get to the bottom. Whoops, I'm dying. I guess it got cured.
Why it's a problem.
These attunements are really 4 afflictions. I have to waste 1-4 real cure attempts to heal this. Meanwhile, I'm getting hinder spammed. What was it like to have equilibrium? Ask me after I buy back.
Why it's a problem.
Rune flares are a great mistake in my opinion. Nairat/Loshre just magnify problem 1 by a factor of dumb. Then throw in the equally misguided hunter, where every time I cure a high priority affliction I eat two hinders.
In the beta, we ran into this problem with summoner. It was too easy to stack taint attunement and once you got 3-4 it was lights out. Mage is really no different. You don't even have to be good at mage. I can't think of a single mage who really does anything impressive or useful. The afflictions don't matter so you don't have to track them at all. All you have to do is build attunement and faceroll that **** to the finish line. Chances are that your opponent won't be able to hit back anyways.
I know that. I'm saying on top of that.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."